Gibson, Maybach, Tokai, Eastman (among others) Lesters

Teyeplayer

So, a little bit of devils advocate here having read @RichardsGuitars  post about the new Eastman guitars. http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/94616/eastman-sb59#latest

Now for one I have never met Richard nor have I the unfinished battles that others seem to have -so peace brother, they look beautiful guitars, as I say this is me playing devils advocate. One day I intend to pop over and have a cuppa with you as you seem an interesting guy that I'd be happy to chat guitars with.

My thought process is this however: price point.

Any of us can go out and purchase an end of line Gibson for the same price as the Eastman, I can buy a secondhand one for less and in each scenario shop around to find a good one. The big benefit there for me personally is that I never hang onto a guitar for ever, so the resale will be a little more consistent. If I was feeling snobbish and wanted a US built instrument and am bothered by the country of origin, there are second hand Heritages and Collings that come in around the same price, give or take a few hundred. If I want another quality option or a secondhand bargain then there are Tokai amongst the other Japanese brands who make fine instruments, for less money and have an awesome rep. Maybach were another company that were of interest and being a European company felt geographically a little closer to home.

So I wonder, are the Eastman guitars just a little too pricey for what they are? I appreciate from a business perspective there is probably a better product margin and based on Gibsons history probably less quality control issues to resolve -this makes sense for a seller. The Eastman specs are always fantastic and I have nothing against where they come from -I have a beaten up Loar that is soooo well loved and gigged, it's a great guitar, but it costs just £600 new not 1500-1600. I also regularly gig a Taylor T3B that I know will never hold its value, so resale isn't everything, being inspired to play is.
I just can't help but wonder as a comparative cost and similar spec though if as a brand, Eastman set their prices too high, particularly as resale will always be so much lower? What do folks reckon? And Richard do chime in, I am genuinely interested to know what folks think.

mgaw

they are over priced, they make nice guitars no doubt about it but not £1600 nice, there is so much competition at that price and many better.  I have had an archtop and a flat top both nice but not great....i got them 2nd hand which helped but they didnt last and i ended up with far better guitars for not too much more than the Eastman's new price.

No brainer for me, they are not worth the asking price if you flip guitars (which is most of us) and personally i dont think they are good enough to be keepers 

pintspiller

Unless a shop can get hold of enough used gear they are always going to sell new stuff. I am sure every shop would like to sell the best instruments possible for every budget.

On the other hand, not everybody likes to buy used stuff. The music shop in my home town never carried anything used, and the most expensive gear they sold was Encore.

armitaan

think difficult to try and compare new versus used from a value for money perspective , you're always going to find more value in the second hand market, some people just like buying things new, or through store get opportunity to try a bunch of guitars and can find what feels right to them which isn't always what they may think they want walking in, also of issues there's some come back. I think buying  anything new at mo, given depreciation in sterling, will give you a hefty loss: Andertons eg seem to have bunch of relic strats around the 3.5k mark can't believe you'd come away with more than 2.5k if flipped one of those. 

Teyeplayer

Fair points @pintspiller and @armitaan and perhaps I focus too heavily on secondhand prices in my opening question (this probably gives away that I rather like pre-dinged guitars, I feel less guilty for those clumsy moments).

However, even at a new price. Yes we often go into stores, are pleasantly surprised by what we try, and end up leaving with something we never planned to. But surely if we do a like for like on the multitude of Les Paul imitations and inspired by models in this price bracket, including the various Gibson offerings, would we really leave with an Eastman? I am not convinced that most of us would. If it was just under 1k, quite possibly that would change? Certainly their 335 copies that are often below 1k are very tempting indeed.

earwighoney

I have a Eastman E10-00, and it's a really fantastic guitar.  In terms of build quality and woods, in particular the latter the standards are incredibly high.  The soundboard of my guitar came from Old Standard, and Collings sourced their Red Spruce from the same seller.  In terms of what I paid for my E10-00, IMO there is nothing which is equal to the quality of my guitar in the price range.  

As for the SB59, Richard said it would £1399. 

The Eastman SB59 does seem like a lot of money for what it is, which is a far eastern built 'imitation', but it has a few things which I believe 'bump' up the value, which include
- Seymour Duncan Antiquity HB's (£250 or so street value)
- Aged Gotoh Hardware (not sure if it's aluminium or not) 
- One piece Fiji Mahogany body (found on Gibson R9's) 
- Nitro finish

When it comes to wood and materials, it seems the Eastman counterpart is using things which are found on the highest priced Gibson reissues. 

Of course, the resale value will never be as great but for many people that won't matter that.  

armitaan

Teyeplayer said:

Fair points @pintspiller and @armitaan and perhaps I focus too heavily on secondhand prices in my opening question (this probably gives away that I rather like pre-dinged guitars, I feel less guilty for those clumsy moments).

However, even at a new price. Yes we often go into stores, are pleasantly surprised by what we try, and end up leaving with something we never planned to. But surely if we do a like for like on the multitude of Les Paul imitations and inspired by models in this price bracket, including the various Gibson offerings, would we really leave with an Eastman? I am not convinced that most of us would. If it was just under 1k, quite possibly that would change? Certainly their 335 copies that are often below 1k are very tempting indeed.

Tbh would have to play one to answer the question. It would have to be feel better to me  than the other brands you mentioned given the likely lower residuals , but if it's a good guitar you may hold on to longer and get better value out of it than something bought and flipped quickly.  Think in general if you're a serial flipper you always better staying in the used market unless you have very deep pockets

pintspiller

armitaan said:

in general if you're a serial flipper you always better staying in the used market unless you have very deep pockets

That's to the point. And the best thing I've heard anybody say today.

Teyeplayer

pintspiller said:

armitaan said:

in general if you're a serial flipper you always better staying in the used market unless you have very deep pockets

That's to the point. And the best thing I've heard anybody say today.

Spot on gents! Must keep this in mind next time I come to purchase!

Skipped

A second hand Historic Les Paul is almost affordable (£1700) if you are working. It is a Gibson. There are hundreds to choose from as they have been in production for 24 years.

I have claimed that these guitars are between 70% and 80% of a Fifties Les Paul......probably depending on the last guitar I  played at moment of posting.
That is good. 80% is really good.

So I always say...save up the money and then look really hard for a GT or a Plaintop.  I am not a vintage snob even though it looks that way. The Historic is the intelligent choice every time.

Teyeplayer

Food for thought there @Skipped always fancied a goldtop, there will have to be one in my future.

matone

Skipped said:

A second hand Historic Les Paul is almost affordable (£1700) if you are working. It is a Gibson. There are hundreds to choose from as they have been in production for 24 years.

I have claimed that these guitars are between 70% and 80% of a Fifties Les Paul......probably depending on the last guitar I  played at moment of posting.
That is good. 80% is really good.

So I always say...save up the money and then look really hard for a GT or a Plaintop.  I am not a vintage snob even though it looks that way. The Historic is the intelligent choice every time.

Proper wisdom !

Lodious

I think its impossible to comment on the prices until you have played one. If these sound and play really good, 1400 quid is a very attractive price. 

If they are not really good, then £1400 is a problem. Aesthetically (IMHO), the Eastwood looks a lot less visually appealing when compared a Gibson. If they are wonderful guitars, I'd be happy to overlook this.

It's got to come down to how good the guitars are. If you buy a Gibson which is not a great guitar, you will still sell it for reasonable money. If you buy a Maybach / Eastwood which is not great, any perspective buyer is going to judge it without the brand name for reassurance, and unless the guitar is really good, it's going to be worth very little (I'm not saying this is fair, but I think its a reality).

Ultimately, these guitars have to be judged with an open mind by people who have played them. If they are truly great, then they will flourish, if not, they will go the way of the other brands Richard has been involved with.

RichardsGuitars

@Teyeplayer . Could I just say right now, your welcoming approach is ALL I ever ask in a public forum. I am afraid it is 100% impossible for me to engage in any conversation on this forum because within seconds - literally one or two posts - the idiots have crawled out to start their jibes. For example "mgaw" immediately posted "look whos in the room" following my post on Maybach which was my first post in months. The admin told me not to rise to this and ignore it but when you have someone biting your ankles every time you make a comment its pretty sould destroying. Subsequently he has posted a negative comment directly under anything I have written and not replied to my questions. Anyway... THANK YOU for trying to show a welcome face for the forum and if/when you meet me you will find me only to be welcoming, interested in not just your musical interests but one of the reasons I love my work so much is I get to meet people from such a range of walks of life - its amazing. My website acts as a filter so the people who end up visiting my shop naturally has a similar ethos to quality, interesting standout guitars and want to be treated with red carpet service - like a person with specific needs rather than just another "sale" walking through the door. Even based on your opening text I know we would get on so don't worry - you have nothing to fear!!!! Now then.... your question is brilliant because it opens up a subject that is so important to understand and appreciate. Why people buy guitars! My reason for promoting the guitars I do is based on 22 years of being in the trade. The reason I got involved with selling guitars was because I LOVED guitar - playing since I was 8 years old and guitars are my life. Literally my entire life with the exception of my family which comes first. So... I got into selling them. There is a phrase "never meet your idles" This could not be MORE true for my industry. Over the years as I built up be knowledge and experience of the trade the glitz and excitement of being part of it wore off - I realised I had come to LOATH my industry. Marshall - Highly unreliable, the MG series which sounded like a wasp in a jam jar Fender - The MD HATED me (put your own jokes in there). He could not STAND the fact that I would tell people which guitars were worth the money and which ones were not. He could not stand me raising awareness of any quality issue within the range and the fact we had any kind of quality control in place. He hated my shop because it didn't follow the "norm". Despite their company hating my guts I would buy around £15000 of Fender guitars a month but I would do it in a way I felt comfortable and true to myself. Ibanez - It drove me nuts having kids coming in saying "ahh Cort - they are Ibanez copies". Nope kids... they MAKE the Ibanez guitars. Gibson...... But above all, Gibson was by far the greatest let down of all. Not just a let down but I couldn't understand how it was even LEGAL to sell guitars the way they did - resulting in many conversations with trading standards - but yep, it was all above board and nothing could be done about it. I would receive a red sheet of paper every two weeks with the full page of broken truss rods, twisted necks - you name it - it was for sale. Heavily discounted but the truth is I have NEVER seen a Gibson being sold as a second, even though we all know we have heard the horror stories - barely a day goes by without me hearing of some tragic story and I could tell so many myself. So for me PERSONALLY from a business perspective if it is essential that I can get out of bed in the morning and be true to myself. For me to provide genuine personal advice I have to beieve every word I say - otherwise I am a fraud. Do I pick up second hand Gibsons and get a thrill from them ? YES! I have NEVER said otherwise and when a lovely example turns up I shout from the hill tops about it. Same for Fender - wonderful guitars. Would I ever recommend buying a NEW Gibson? NEVER. Quality has been a sham for years and years and as you have already stated my recommendation for buying a Gibson is IF you know what you are doing ,buy it used, loose the depreciation and now you have an investment which you can sell on at no less than what you paid for it if you get bored with it. On the Fender front, the only reason why I do not sell them NEW is because I just could not commit to the million and one variations that it takes to be a "dealer". The range is 90% BS with a core 10% of guitars I could truly love selling - and like I say I have to get up in the morning and life a true life - not a fiction and certainly not one controlled by someone else. My life is my own and the beauty of my work is it is as fluid as my thoughts on the day. To the nitty gritty then! Eastman Vs Gibson....

RichardsGuitars

@Teyeplayer ;;If someone needs a Gibson, there is no alternative - lets make that 100% clear. So we can continue the conversation with that as a given. There is only one Gibson. Warts and all. Buying used is ideal but there are so many people who do not know what a broken truss rod would feel like, or whether a twisted neck is a big deal, whether the intonation is correct or fully adjustable and buying used can be a very scary and intimidating process especially when you are talking about spending £1000 or more. If you are 100% comfortable, have the experience with the technical side and prepared to put a bit of work in - you can get a bargain on say Ebay - why wouldn't you. That is 100% fine. But its not for everyone. I will do my best to keep my eye out for Quality used Gibsons and you will see them on my site when they do come up. I have a 50th Anniversary Gibson Firebird right now - incredibly rare and whoever buys it will have 100% confidence it is what it says it is, plays as it should and all the parts are original! Eastman is not a Gibson. Eastman guitars are made by hand. For some this is of no consequence. If you are like me however it is highly consequential! The hairs go up on the back of my arm when I get one out the box. Every time I open one up for the first time its like Christmas for me. That is the experience I want when I am around guitars. I sit and look the guitar over, imagining how it got to look like it does from the spit and sawdust environment from where they are made. The chisels, sandpaper and wood stain - not a single CNC in site - nothing. The woods they use are of the most exquisite quality. If you look at their mahogany it looks like Koa. You would never see this on a Martin, Taylor or a Gibson. So we are talking hand made instruments using the finest tone woods at the price possible. So who is buying an Eastman? Someone who wants someting special, who sees a value in traditional craftmanship, who wants the highest quality possible on a sensible budget. All those characteristics fit all the products I sell. Godin guitars, Furch guitars, Gordon Smith Guitars and Eastman Guitars ALL share the same values. Resale value dosn't come in to it for the customer I am dealing with. My customers are looking for a long terms personal experience with their guitar - not looking at the end game. Thats like not getting married because you think you will have trouble disposing of her if you get bored. For me - its not a thought for the "now". I love Budism and they will tell you to be in the moment and live for now because the only thing you will ever live is now. Don't worry about what may be because it may stop you living life to the full. However if you don't share my hippy thoughts (lol) then this equation will put your mind at rest.... Gibson Les Paul Standard 2017 £2299. Resale £1899 tops? Eastman SB59 £1399. Lets say you have to GIVE it away at half price. £700 (ridiculous as that wouldnt happen) Terrible eh? all that money lost on the Eastman! Hmmm... In real terms you have had to spend more on the Gibson for something almost undeniably lower quality than an Eastman (up for debate from some but I have explained I would want a hand made guitar over a mass produced guitar) so to buy the Gibson you paid a lot more up front. £900 MORE in fact. So for some people they would rather not spend the £900 in the first place. The Gibson then loses just £400 against £2299 and the Eastman loses £700 against £1399. So in real terms a total additional loss of just £300 So the argument of buying a Gibson over an Eastman at new just doesn't stand up for me. You have to pay a LOT more money for someone made to a lesser specification to gain just £300 over the term of your ownership of the guitar. Is that REALLY worth it? These are my genuine arguments and hope you will consider them - I think they make a lot of sense. If you bought either of the guitars second hand remember - you would be picking up the Eastman for £700 (!!!!!!) and the Gibson would still be costing you a massive £1899 so the arguement for buying a used Eastman is even greater now - as neither guitar will lose any more money (however if you dink the Gibson you will lose more relatively so dont damage it!). So I think where this takes us is.... As guitarists we all buy for our own personal reasons - some buy to sell - some buy for very specific musical requirements - some want the guitar to make us feel good - whatever the reason is - but one thing you can be sure of is there are many many reasons and its not a one size fits all scenario. I promote Eastman because they are wonderful, they make me feel good and they tick all the boxes for an instrument that I want to be around and equally importantly if a customer is going to travel 2 or 3 hours to visit my shop he needs to have a unique experience and one he will treasure - if you look at my testimonials on feedback from customers who have purchased guitars from me you will know that few peple who experience the guitars in my shop would disagree with what I have written above. +Teyeplayer - Can't wait to meet you in person and thanks for the opportunity to chat about guitars.

RichardsGuitars

mgaw said:

they are over priced, they make nice guitars no doubt about it but not £1600 nice, there is so much competition at that price and many better.  I have had an archtop and a flat top both nice but not great....i got them 2nd hand which helped but they didnt last and i ended up with far better guitars for not too much more than the Eastman's new price.

No brainer for me, they are not worth the asking price if you flip guitars (which is most of us) and personally i dont think they are good enough to be keepers 

I have no interest in fighting - just want to talk about guitars. Please do allow me the opportunity. Thanks. It may be worth trying a few more Eastmans as we all know that every brand can have its bad day and Gibson has been given more excuses than we could measure so keep an open mind and try a few more - I can point you in the right direction if you are looking for a specific sound.

Jack_

Dude, use paragraphs, PLEASE.

RichardsGuitars

earwighoney said:

I have a Eastman E10-00, and it's a really fantastic guitar.  In terms of build quality and woods, in particular the latter the standards are incredibly high.  The soundboard of my guitar came from Old Standard, and Collings sourced their Red Spruce from the same seller.  In terms of what I paid for my E10-00, IMO there is nothing which is equal to the quality of my guitar in the price range.  

As for the SB59, Richard said it would £1399. 

The Eastman SB59 does seem like a lot of money for what it is, which is a far eastern built 'imitation', but it has a few things which I believe 'bump' up the value, which include
- Seymour Duncan Antiquity HB's (£250 or so street value)
- Aged Gotoh Hardware (not sure if it's aluminium or not) 
- One piece Fiji Mahogany body (found on Gibson R9's) 
- Nitro finish

When it comes to wood and materials, it seems the Eastman counterpart is using things which are found on the highest priced Gibson reissues. 

Of course, the resale value will never be as great but for many people that won't matter that.  

Spot on. 

John_P

Massively overpriced imo.     I just can't make the numbers work compared to buying a Gibson when similar copies are cheaper.  

RichardsGuitars

Lodious said:

Ultimately, these guitars have to be judged with an open mind by people who have played them. If they are truly great, then they will flourish, if not, they will go the way of the other brands Richard has been involved with.

@Lodious ;Have I mis read this?  lol  What are you referring to?

Teyeplayer

Thanks @RichardsGuitars for your comments and please gents let's not get into spats, life's too short and I am too much of an old hippie so am only interested in honest good natured debate. Richard, good to have you onboard and I look forward to visiting your store someday.

I think there is a lot of sense in what you say, how many times do all of us comment on the latest BS marketing from the big name brands after Namm? With a few exceptions we ALL do it,  likewise though it doesn't change that there is only one Gibson or Fender and when they are great, boy are they great -you are spot on there dude.

I do fear that Eastmans (particularly their top end guitars) are hugely overpriced, but as you say thinking about passing it on for the next purchase should never be a consideration, being inspired should be the focus (though I must confess I am starting to get wise to my attention span). If I am honest about this, I am as likely to 'serially flip' a saved for and lusted after historic lester as I would be a cheaper far eastern alternative - so we end full circle at the old comment of try everything before you buy and buy what is best for you. 

Unfortunately however, I also agree with Neil Young that there are only so many songs in a guitar so one mines it for what you can and then move on... it's a never ending circle, I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't! :-)