Getting flustered trying to improvise over changes

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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    ben_wuh said:
    Anyone got any words of wisdom to help on this (admittedly very common) issue?

    I've spent about 6 months with a teacher trying to improve my jazz playing, and I've made great progress in some areas, but I still find improvising over changes massively challenging.

    I can apply a pre-written lick when I see a change I'm familiar with, like if I see a II-V-I coming up. But I've got a limited range of these to hand and I'm not really 'improvising'.

    Similarly, I can use arpeggios to get me through a progression, but this sounds robotic and unmelodic.

    My teacher says I need to hone in on the guide tones more, but I find it so hard to actually get that sense of tension and resolution in a line - all I'm doing is struggling to hit a certain note at a certain time.

    Basically, there's a million things you could do and I can't do any of them particularly well! Anyone else had this issue?

    And are there any exercises out there that can help me better find and use guide tones in my playing?

    Thanks in advance!
    Iv just been reading this again this morning ...i think a good way to work on tension and resolution...is for instance 251 in c....work around the Dm7 arp add the C# as a passing note it will give us mel minor sound iff you want....just play around with the notes in the Dm7 arp and try and land on one of the altered notes in G7...so maybe aim for a b9 but dont go any further for now ..spend a lot of time finding different routes to the b9

    After a while ..take the the b9 note and find different ways to one of the chord tones of Cmaj...use passing notes ect us G altered scale to try this remember to work these ideas out over 2 and 4 beat phrases maybe use a metronome..

    After this do the same with #9..b5 ..#5 ..using the same ideas as above ...then mix ..which will probably come automatically all the alterations...this will need done in all positions...its quite a bit of work but a good way of looking at it is an eventual goal ..your playing will be getting better along the way..

    Most players can play in one key but find it difficult negotiating scale changes by doing this you will know where all the altered notes are will be able to navigate the changes without relying on preset licks ..although they are important as well...and know where all the notes are for building chords instantly..

    I think jazz comes accros as music that is free in form ...no thought required ..just pure improvisation ..which maybe some of it is but i think most of it has been worked out before hand in the practise room ...

    Good luck with this i feel your pain :)


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  • @Clarky - sounds like Michel Thomas language method applied to guitar and it's a great way to think about it.

    I'm in a similar position to the OP, in respect of jazz, and am currently learning Charlie Christian stuff as his approach seems to suit how I want to learn (and sounds terrific).
    Trading feedback info here

    My band, Red For Dissent
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    @Clarky - sounds like Michel Thomas language method applied to guitar and it's a great way to think about it.

    I'm in a similar position to the OP, in respect of jazz, and am currently learning Charlie Christian stuff as his approach seems to suit how I want to learn (and sounds terrific).
    the language analogy is really the only one that makes sense to me..
    and it's not just music / guitar playing, it's style specific too…

    like Guy points out above, to learn jazz you need to immerse yourself in it..
    just 'knowing the notes' is not quite enough.. you need to really understand the style..
    and likewise, to really understand metal, prog, funk, blues, baroque and so on you really need to listen and learn a lot of it to get right inside it..

    funny really.. a few years back when I was invited to join a movie trailer house as a composer I thought it'd be right up my alley.. a 'home game' if you will..
    essentially, trailer style is a hybrid of epic orchestral - choral music with big percussion, synths and at times a rock / metal angle..
    big orchestral choral music I know well.. studied it in great depth for years..
    I know drums and percussion.. because I was a drummer long before I was a guitarist..
    rock / metal is my native style
    so I expected to nail it pretty quickly…
    wrong ! ! ! !
    trailer music and movie soundtracks are styles of music each in their own right
    I had to totally immerse myself in that style, study the crap out of it and write a lot it [failing many times] before I finally truly understood how they work..
    took about a year of failures until the trailer house finally accepted the first piece..
    lucky for me, they were patient with me because they were confident that I had the right combination of the skills needed..
    I simply lacked experience in that genre and they accepted that..
    so far as they were concerned it would simply be a matter of time..
    and even now… I never hit the bull's eye at the first pass.. they are fkn difficult to create..

    the moral of the story… 
    no matter how experienced you are, when you step into a new genre, you still have to go to great lengths before you can be sure that you fully understand it.. you have to learn it's own unique language and then climb inside it..
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • For the last year Ive been practicing hard at playing over changes and i have been through a few pit falls. Subseqently now I feel im making headway.

    A big help was Matt Warnocks Jazz Guitar website, especially his guide to arpeggios.

    After trying multiple approaches my practice is like this.

    I pick a weekly progression. This past week was I- VI-IV-V. Each day ill play the chords with different voicings.

    Each day I pick a five fret box and play each arpeggio over the progression.

    Ill play the full arpeggio for 2 mins
    Then start on the b3rd or 3rd for 1 min
    5th for 1 min
    B7th or 7th for 1 min
    Then the octave and the reverse for 1 minute

    Then i slide into the 3rd for 1 min
    Slide into the 5th for 1min
    Slide into b7th for 1 minute
    Slide into octave for 1 minute.

    Next ill free improvise slowly for five minutes singing to all the sounds i make, adding in the fourth and the sixth when it sounds good, and any other passing note.

    Next i repeat the same arpeggio exercise but now the arpeggios start on the same string.  

    I do this timed and it takes thirty minutes.

    It has really helped me to see all the intervals and has helped my ear enormously.

    Any other tweaks that might help, please add.





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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    I've been playing Jazz for more than 35 years. Knowing theory and what scale fits what chord is worth nothing, if you can't hear in your mind, how the chords sound and what notes will sound good with the chords.

    If you can't hear and play Pop and Rock music by ear, please, don't bother trying to play Jazz.

    It's not science, it's art.
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    edited February 2017
    GuyBoden said:
    I've been playing Jazz for more than 35 years. Knowing theory and what scale fits what chord is worth nothing, if you can't hear in your mind, how the chords sound and what notes will sound good with the chords.

    If you can't hear and play Pop and Rock music by ear, please, don't bother trying to play Jazz.

    It's not science, it's art.
    the other aspect to this is really getting a style's unique vibe…
    I know classical players that are wonderful classical musicians but cannot improvise
    jazzers that are great at jazz but cannot play rock or metal at all cos they just don't get it..
    metal shredders that are great at metal and shredding but cannot play in any other musical setting..

    some styles of music are so focused that you essentially have to live them
    especially blues.. we all think we can play the blues..
    just three chords and a pentatonic with a blue note.. easy peasy right???
    wrong… most of us impersonate the blues.. admittedly some better than others..
    but the real thing is a little different..
    the attitude and approach is everything
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • AndyJPAndyJP Frets: 219
    edited February 2017
    As guitar players we are too obsessed with the notes.  The rhythm is arguably more important, our lead lines need to tie in with the groove.

    I'm trying to improve my improv timing and feel at the mo.  When I hear a track I'm listening to the drums (particularly the high hat).  First question is triplets or straight?   If it's triplets I'm playing to a 12 note grid (4 sets of triplets).  Otherwise I'm trying to learning to play to a 16th Note grid.  So in my head I'm counting 1 e and a, 2 e and a.  Trying to make my notes fall onto this grid.  It's pretty bloody hard to be honest, but I've made big improvements in the short time I've been practising this.  Well worth a look.

    Here's the vid that got me started:


    That's my 2p...
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    AndyJP said:
    As guitar players we are too obsessed with the notes.  The rhythm is arguably more important, our lead lines need to tie in with the groove.
    interesting you mention this..
    one of my students [who is a total metal player] has decided he wants to learn blues as he thinks it'll contribute to him becoming a more rounded player.. something I totally encourage..
    so.. I've been working with him on playing the changes, blues licks.. and the blues 'touch' [which is very different to metal]..

    one of the hurdles to overcome was getting him [to use a boxing phrase] to "stick and move"..
    to play the space as well as play the licks..
    lick.. space.. lick.. space..
    he had a tendency to over play.. and last night he made huge progress in this area..
    it's completely at odds with his relentless metal 'fill all space" mentality

    the "mind" part of playing and the choices you make, where and when are just as important and the things you know and can do
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 6378
    For copping licks - this book is great --> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bebop-Licks-Guitar-REH-Pro/dp/0634033557

    For coping with changes - slow it down and learn to listen where the cool notes are.

    Free Jimmy Bruno trick on 251 - wait a beat then just play a 5 lick over both 2 & 5 chords (or vice versa). Works a treat ! ;)

    Also - if you play the arpeggio's 3rd or the 7th only (or vamp something simple using the 1 & 5)  - that's it, changes addressed !  Getting to the standard of machine gunning continous 8th notes (that sound musical) is a target, but one for the long haul IME.



    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • AndyJPAndyJP Frets: 219
    Clarky said:
    AndyJP said:
    As guitar players we are too obsessed with the notes.  The rhythm is arguably more important, our lead lines need to tie in with the groove.
    interesting you mention this..
    one of my students [who is a total metal player] has decided he wants to learn blues as he thinks it'll contribute to him becoming a more rounded player.. something I totally encourage..
    so.. I've been working with him on playing the changes, blues licks.. and the blues 'touch' [which is very different to metal]..

    one of the hurdles to overcome was getting him [to use a boxing phrase] to "stick and move"..
    to play the space as well as play the licks..
    lick.. space.. lick.. space..
    he had a tendency to over play.. and last night he made huge progress in this area..
    it's completely at odds with his relentless metal 'fill all space" mentality

    the "mind" part of playing and the choices you make, where and when are just as important and the things you know and can do
    Yeah agreed the music has to breathe, space is especially important in blues.  But is not important in all styles?

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  • BradBrad Frets: 658
    edited February 2017
    @ben_wuh ;;;;

    First of all, go easy on yourself. You say you've been looking at this properly for 6 months. This stuff takes years and it can be years of frustration. But learn to be cool with that first of all.  

    Now in all honesty, how well do you really know the fretboard? I ask this, because I remember my first lesson with a well known guitarist in my part of the world. I thought I had a fair bit of stuff together at that point, and he asked me to play over Blue Bossa and I duly obliged. 

    After a couple of choruses he asked me to stop and gave me some initial feedback. He asked me to play again but this time naming the notes as I was improvising. My playing fell apart after about 2 bars. 

    This is was a massive wake up call!

    To cut a long story short I had to go back to basics and almost re-learn the guitar. I could play the right scales over the correct chords, but it was superficial and like you I'd get flustered playing changes. 

    It sounds a little like you need a system of learning that will really give strong foundations. Its not about being musical (yet!). Here is what has worked (and continues to!) for me. 

    Whatever tune or chord progression you're working on stay within a restricted 5 or 6 fret area. 

    1. Only play root notes. 
    2. Only play 3rds. 
    3. Only play 5ths. 
    4. Only play 7ths. 

    Don't worry about rhythm yet, just focus on where these tones are on the fretboard and how they SOUND against each chord. Play these tones without the chords and try and hear the harmony with your inner ear. Play the chords and try and sing the tones without the guitar etc...

    Then play two beats per note per chord...

    1. roots and 3rd
    2. 3rds and 7ths*

    *Now in a ii V I you'll see how the 7th moves smoothly to the 3rd of the next chord? Then play three notes per bar etc etc...

    The aim is to get these tones as landmarks for your improv that you can then decorate with rhythm, scales, chromatics etc. You should being to see them pop out of any scales/chords/arpeggios you play. 

    Admittedly this can get pretty dry, so pick a one bar rhythm to do the exercise with. Perhaps that is easy, or maybe it becomes more difficult? Pick a different rhythm. Sing these things as you play them on the instrument. 

    Restricting the the amount of information you use initially, really allows you to embed that info and add more to it as you go.

    Then move on to the continuous scale/arpeggio exercise. It's a killer but a great way of smoothly connecting changes. 

    I'm not a Jazz player by any means, but the above exercises have really enabled me to tackle much harder material that I may have been able to otherwise. Plus it made learning lines, transcribing ideas much more immediate and useful. 

    Listen to guys that are really melodic and use a lot of space in their playing - Jim Hall, Miles Davis (Kind of Blue album), Chet Baker...

    Above all don't stress, enjoy the process and good luck. We're all on the same journey :smile: 
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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 6378
    ^^^^ Good stuff !

    A looper pedal is a great practice tool for these rotes and will help hugely with ear training.
    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • great thread!

    I listened to Julian Lage and was thinking how does he think when playing or does he not. I guess it helps if you started at the age of 4 and the first thing your dad teaches you is all 5 positions of the minor pentatonic and you get obsessed by Jazz!



    Loads of vids on this guy. Check him out his harmonic language is incredible and plays so effortlessly. only 29 too! GIT!
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  • What if you can't sing :)





    UnclePsychosis said:
    Here's a fun one for you : instead of playing an improvised guitar solo over the changes, sing an improvised guitar solo. Take away the bit where you have to worry about playing notes and just sing the kind of lines that your brain wants to make. It takes you away from getting worked up about what notes are "right" or getting trapped in a chord shape. 

    Then,  if you want to, work put how to play the lines you've just sung. Do this often enough and soon you'll be able to play the lines first off, instead of singing them. 

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  • ben_wuhben_wuh Frets: 21
    Been loads of great responses in here - enough to keep me going for months! Thanks everyone for all the advice. 

    Definitely starting to appreciate that this is a slow journey, but im starting to see small signs of progress. Last night, for the first time, I realised I was playing over some changes automatically, by ear, whilst thinking about more difficult ones coming up. I was thrilled! 

    @Brad, thanks for the response and what you said about knowing the fretboard was definitely an eye opener. I'm pretty shocking at naming notes, so big area to work on there. 

    @dean111music I love Julian lage - he's a great improviser with a really unique voice. Got damn, I want a tele!



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  • TimmyTimmy Frets: 23
    There is a fantastic online jazz lesson site called my music masterclass.  You have to pay for the videos but they are worth it. All by jazz heavy weights ben monder, john abercromby, oz noy etc. Basically most of the working new york jazz scene 
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  • 57Deluxe57Deluxe Frets: 7329
    you said Jazz?? Then there are no rules - play anything!
    <Vintage BOSS Upgrades>
    __________________________________
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    57Deluxe said:
    you said Jazz?? Then there are no rules - play anything!
    Would be nice iff this actually worked..
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  • JoeHenryJoeHenry Frets: 4
    Great pointers on this thread. I thought I'd add this from Chris Standring  for anybody that hasn't seen it before.  
    I found this to be quite a helpful insight
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  • It might have been said somewhere in here but a simple thing that I often overlook is actually learning the changes from memory. When you watch guys who look really liberated compared to the mental grind that you can feel, a lot can come down to how unencumberd your mind is when you make note choices. Having to process the changes themselves does take a lot of time and increases the load on your brain! 
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