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So for anyone interested in these sorts of details... When the new Gibson line came out some of them were sporting what they call Ultra Modern Weight Relief...
They now have a page up here showing it... I do have to wonder why they bothered changing it at all?
http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/Gibson-2017-New-Model-Preview.aspx
This is the old one on the right
http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r588/Rabs2010/986927gibsonweightrelief_zpsoafkxum7.jpg
And the new sparkly ULTRA version??
http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r588/Rabs2010/2017-weight-relief_zpscq9gj2go.jpg
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And aside from weight advantage, what's the general consensus regarding chambering/weight relief from the perspective of tone and value/desirability?
Anyone?
They have been doing it since about 1982.... And they did it because LPs were getting really heavy (like 15lbs +).. The thing is that for many years no one knew about it theres a famous pic on the net of a LP that was x-rayed....
So most LPs have one type or another but there are some solid bodies with no relief (some LP Traditionals and some Custom models)... And I think in 2008 they started chambering them (Standards) but with a huge backlash as people didn't like it (I actually have a chambered one and love it myself).. so they dont do that so much, I think some Studios are still chambered.... And I would agree that a chambered model can sound a bit brighter... but not to the extent that it makes much difference (well not to me anyway).
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full chambers have a more noticeable impact on weight and tone... you will lose a couple of lb at least.
modern kinda splits the difference, looks pleasing and is easy to do on CNC. But generally lots of small chambers has less tonal impact that a few big ones, even if the same amount of wood is removed.
Like all these things, it's hard to prove so just play the bloody things.
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Haha, that's exactly what I though about my LP Classic that's also almost 11lbs (and shows why they do it)...
Well from what I can remember off the top of my head.. Up until 2007 they only used the 9 hole (swiss cheese).. Then they tried the chambering which lasted I think till 2011 then the modern weight relief... Customs im not so sure about but probably swiss cheesed..
But actually I think that's the point.. Other than chambering (which you can tell by knocking on the top) there is no way to tell just from looking or even playing one..
This stuff is just for the nerds and really doesn't make much difference... (well I don't think anyway, some people will swear that unless its a totally solid body its not a real Les Paul and wont sustain as much (which is of course utter nonsense )
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Because all of that old Genuine Mahogany is much lighter than the type they use these days......
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It's called marketing.
With or without the BS post script.
What puzzles me about the various weight-relief attempts is that using the same diameter holes as in the older 9-hole pattern, you could easily fit in about double that number without impacting any structural areas… and that in the modern pattern, what's the hole near the treble stoptail post for? That seems almost purposely designed to possibly compromise tone for virtually no significant extra weight loss. Or if it doesn't affect tone, why isn't there one on the bass side too?
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
Les Pauls became iconic during the 60s because they were so heavy, and by the 70s players were demanding even more weight, resulting in Yamaha's brass sustain blocks and aftermarket cast brass bridge plates for Strats. Heaviness represented quality and sustain for most people.
There is a (usually spurious) tonal argument for the airiness that comes with lighter Les Pauls, but the fundamental reason everyone wants them to feel like they're filled with helium is that the guitar playing community, and most especially the blues/rock playing community is now really quite elderly.
These people demand that their Les Pauls look exactly like a '59, but feel and sound like an Epi Dot.
Harsh but true .
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
lighter. Ignoring the wood Gibson used debate, khayas average weight is higher than that of Cuban mahogany, Honduran mahogany and Cedrela. This does not mean all khaya will be heavier. I was caught off guard by two builders saying black Limba was heavier than the white version. It does not match my experience, but could be true. Of course they were buying stocks from the same place, so it may be that source which is heavier.
Dryer. a 50's les Paul kept in Hawaii will be wetter than a new one from the factory. The dryness of wood is not a fixed quantity, it adjusts to its environment. Old wood does gradually get dryer, but never looses its ability to reabsorb moisture. It's hard to compare air vs kiln dried, but kiln generally goes dryer than air. If you go back to before it was chopped down, it's pretty well established that wetter trees give lighter wood once "dried".
The moisture and mineral content of the soil the tree grew in has more to do with the weight than species does
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The African mahogany I have had mostly been lighter than any honduran I've looked at so far
I picked them up from people selling planks and it's older 30 and 20 yr old stock
I looked recently and only one blank out of David dyke was ok and none out of timberline, just too heavy for me
My last Lp was a mixture of chamber and Swiss cheese holes
No science just did what I thought and got the blank to 4lb, the guitar sounds great and 7.75lb finished
It hasn't got a full burst tone but it's really good and I'd do it again
I generally use body blanks that weigh no more than 5.2- 5.3lb cut out with control cavitys done, it gets me a full fat Lp style under 9lb which is my ideal
I do have to hunt round for that wood though and have enough stock to keep me going for a few years ☺
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I guess that's my point. The black limba I was importing from the US 10-15 years ago is clearly from a different source than the black limba available in the UK today. The source is important
this is a great site for general wood properties, as long as you accept they are generalisations only. but they generally come from more sources than personal experience and anecdotes alone
http://www.wood-database.com/
http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/mahogany-mixups-the-lowdown/
it tells you stuff like this:
Cuban - Average Dried Weight: 37 lbs/ft3 (600 kg/m3)
Honduran - Average Dried Weight: 37 lbs/ft3 (590 kg/m3)
Khaya - Average Dried Weight: 40 lbs/ft3 (640 kg/m3)
Utile - Average Dried Weight: 40 lbs/ft3 (635 kg/m3)
Sapele - Average Dried Weight: 42 lbs/ft3 (670 kg/m3)
Cedrela (Spanish cedar) - Average Dried Weight: 29 lbs/ft3 (470 kg/m3)
Limba - Average Dried Weight: 35 lbs/ft3 (555 kg/m3)
Idigbo - Average Dried Weight: 33 lbs/ft3 (530 kg/m3)
For reference - 2 known heavy woods and 2 known light woods
Gaboon Ebony - Average Dried Weight: 60 lbs/ft3 (955 kg/m3)
Hard maple - Average Dried Weight: 44 lbs/ft3 (705 kg/m3)
Balsa - Average Dried Weight: 9 lbs/ft3 (150 kg/m3)
Basswood - Average Dried Weight: 26 lbs/ft3 (415 kg/m3)
Obviously those are averages, and the range would also be important as I think most mahoganies vary in weight more than most maples..
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(formerly customkits)
Have you guys ever seen this pic from the Custom shop?
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/Gibson_Tim/GibsonLPWeights.jpg
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