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nagged and nagged and nagged
I can't provide a link to a job ad from 1 year ago
I have no intention of presenting prof salaries as a lecturer salary, I have already posted typical lecturer salaries: £40k to £60k I think it was
@joeyowen was saying that he knew no profs on the salary I was talking about, so I gave my source
in place of that: http://www.jobs.ac.uk/search/?keywords=professor&jtsearch=1§or=222&show=25&sort=sa
Loads of prof jobs on £96k to £122k
my original point was in fact based on the opposite approach of the one you are pursuing (which I am assuming is that I think lecturers are overpaid, which I don't think): my point is that lecturers are not expensive to hire, and that consequently lectures can't cost much to stage, so why are courses with little lecture time so expensive.
I'm quite aware that other courses cost more to provide, that's not my point (I would assume that high-cost courses that are in demand should be subsidised by the govt, but that is a separate issue). My point is that humanities degrees, and other degrees with 8-12 hours a week lectures, and particularly courses at lower-rated unis should be way way cheaper
I'd love an alternative but there aren't many options
How are "lower-rated unis" to drag themselves up if you cap their income? This approach will just widen the gap.
Still, basing your argument on lecturer wages is ridiculous. Universities are large organisations that do a lot more than just hire lecturers.
I guess it's choice of university, vocation education, work or benefits. There might only be four options but there is quite a lot of diversity within them.
otherwise you are creating a false market, where unis are encouraged to teach less science and engineering, and through the loan payback threshold, the state is subsidising this - a typical "unintended economic consequence"
Do "lower rated companies" drag themselves up by charging the same as top brands? I can't see any logic in your statement on this. Prestige and reputation come before increasing prices. Could primark charge the same as M+S? Again the artificial economics of the loan system enable this, If students/parents had to pay fees up front, the fees would already be far lower
I've given various examples of when lectures or performances are provided that are at far lower cost than Unis are charging students, and pointed out that lecturers aren't paid much, so therefore are often quite willing to do 1-1 tuition for a similar cost to how much a seat in a lecture theatre costs. You have not understood my point, and vaguely saying "it's a large organisation" is not a reasonable argument. Just imagine anyone trying that argument when they wanted to increase electricity bills, train fares, dentist check up prices? Would you be happy to have that reply?
The question you need to ask is "are universities efficient in providing degree-level education for a reasonable cost?"
As I've said, private training companies typically charge £140 per full day of training (I don't mean IT training)
I have arranged these courses myself, including getting a lecturer to stay locally and teach at our premises, which saves money. I'll leave the tech courses to one side for now, I am not claiming they are a rip off in Unis
Contrast these training prices with Uni humanities and other blackboard/whiteboard/ppt subjects that have 8-12 hours a week of lectures:
for 30 weeks you are paying £25.70 to £38.50 an HOUR to sit in a lecture with many other people, so that's £180 to £270 for a 7 hour day of lectures
So: what does a Uni do beyond what a training company does? For some IT training courses I've been on, the lecturers are actual Uni lecturers, so the trainer and the standard can be the same - the lecturer still prepares the material (and they get paid more than in a Uni).
In a Uni, I can see some admin: admissions, providing a support network and career advice, and a library. How much more is that worth?
I think a few percent at most, so Lord Adonis' challenge to the Unis to reduce these fees by 50% sounds about right to me
Does it have to be this way? No, of course not.
I went to a low grade Poly back in the mid 80s where I did a 2 year HND in Electronics and Electrical Engineering. I had a great time and have been pleasantly surprised at how useful and relevant the course curriculum has proved to be even 30 years later.
I've also undertaken many an IT course over the past 15 years, I couldn't equate the two approaches in any shape or form.
That said, I do think that a lot could be achieved by aiming for shorter courses / reducing some of the holiday periods.
Like many have said in this thread, there are now too many people going into higher education undertaking courses that either serve little purpose or for which there is low demand for the knowledge / skills gained. I'm all for supporting access to higher education for all but perhaps we do need to rethink the approach because the status quo is not sustainable in the long term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer#Regulation
Engineers create things, they are not the people who change the oil on something, or replace a part
"to engineer" = "to design and build something using scientific principles"
Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
I'm in the UK, and I'm saying that's what happens in the UK. And whoever wrote that Wiki rubbish is so far up their own arse, it's a wonder you can see their ankles.
And yes, I'm a professional engineer.
Ah - the "words mean whatever I want them to mean" argument?
I already said that that's what happens in the UK, and pointed out that it's a significant factor in why we have a shortage of professional engineers. If we want to fix that shortage we need to stop letting any monkey with a set of spanners call themselves an engineer. You wouldn't let everyone with a wig call themselves a barrister, or everyone with a knife call themselves a surgeon...
The definition is subjective, you happen to disagree, that's fine. I disagree that the man-in-the-van has any impact on the situation, I also happen to disagree that said man may not be an engineer. I have some talented guys that work for me who happen to do just that, and I would refer to them as engineers. Again, it depends on how you view them.
But I think it's not really public perception that would need to change, it's the perception of those that employ engineers. We've long since had the piss taken out of us when it comes to remuneration, I've been living proof of that over the years, and it's the perception of the value engineers have that really matters; they're the ones with the cheque-book.
I also think it's possible there's a reluctance to place engineers too high up in organisations, for fear of others being shown up. I could list a number of people I worked with who were in over their heads, but were still in control. I don't have any firm evidence for that, though.
No idea, but I suspect you're about to enlighten us.
As for leaving with 40k debt - depends how you look at it. Is a degree something the state should fund, or is it something the individual should invest in personally? What level of education should a state be obliged to support? Yep, in theory, graduate educated people should be an asset for th country, and so should be funded. However, you could strongly argue against this idea too.
I'm split down the middle on the university fees principle tbh. One one hand I think its a good thing as it makes (most) students think carefully about the course and future employability, but the other side is that it is a big debt to have over you at 21 years old.
The fault in the system now IMO is that affordabillity is directly related to parental income. Remove it totally. These students are adults we are talking about - what the parents earn, have etc, shouold have nothing to do with what an adult student can borrow. Lend them all the same money, and make it a livable amount. Idealogical yes, but IMO fairer.
Yeah, I dossed completely during my state-funded degree. I don't doubt that I would have put a lot more effort and thought into it if I was paying for it myself.
Also yeah. An 18 year old is a grown-up. Their parents should be under no obligation to give them anything any more.I am well aware of what it means because I are one.
Anyway, slightly off topic I know, but one of the aforementioned engineers has just popped in for a chat about a new 3D radar system, and told me he once met Idi Admin while in a swimming pool in Jeddah. I can't top that one.