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Are single coils less responsive to picking dynamics?

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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9984
    tFB Trader
    Just to clarify, I am not talking about variations in volume with a variation in pick attack - I can see that a single coil with its lower output can be at an advantage here - but rather how easy it is to go from clean to distorted. That said. I guess both are a function of output so are likely to be closely related.

    If single coils give more dynamics, how do they do this, given that with both single coils and humbuckers one might think there is a similar relationship between how hard you pick and how the output changes?

    It's all a bit of a mystery to me!
    Single coil pickups are by nature more dynamically responsive, Alnico 2 however has a very different tonal response than alnico 5 as fitted to the Full Shred ... this may be what is causing the apparent lack of responsiveness. 

    Gassage said:
    The reason why singles offer more dynamics is less magnetic pull.
    In general, strat and tele style pickups have more string pull than PAF output humbuckers with 'under coil magnets',  but it is the very fact that their magnetic fields are so directly in proximity to the strings that makes their tone and dynamic range wider than a humbucker. It's very noticeable when swapping from a Tele to an Esquire how much the sustain is increased by having no string pull at the neck position,  
    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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  • In general, strat and tele style pickups have more string pull than PAF output humbuckers with 'under coil magnets',  but it is the very fact that their magnetic fields are so directly in proximity to the strings that makes their tone and dynamic range wider than a humbucker.
      I have set mine pretty low, especially on the bass side of the neck pickup. I must raise them to see what effect this has. :)
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  • AlegreeAlegree Frets: 665
    edited September 2017 tFB Trader
    If you're judging responsiveness by the effort required to get breakup, the lower output of the singles will make you work harder due to their lower output. Just switch the gain up on your amp for the singles.

    And just as a side note, humbuckers are not less dynamic in terms of this definition. They're both the same.
    Alegree pickups & guitar supplies - www.alegree.co.uk
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  • No
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  • I have tried to find some numbers relating to the output of pickups in the hope that might shed light on what is going on here.

    Apparently, "DiMarzio's lowest output humbucker has an output of 178 mV. Their highest output humbucker, the X2N, has an output of 510 mV." "Their lowest output single coil pickup has an output of 93 mV and the highest output single coil is rated at 325 mV."

    So, it is quite possible to have both a relatively low output humbucker and  a relatively high output single coil.

    As to their responsiveness in terms of variations in their output, single coils do seem to have a greater range. One set of measurements I found gives a reading of 36mv for a open A string, plucked hard with a GFS Pro-Tube lipstick single coil in the middle position (resistance 6.2k) and a reading of 150mv for a firmly strummed open A chord.

    For a Artec Vintage Humbucker (resistance 8.3k) the corresponding readings were 280mv and 740mv. (These are the peak transient readings corresponding to the peak attack of the note.)

    From the above figures it seems that single coils do have a wider dynamic range, given that 150 mv is 4.2 x 36mv, as opposed to 2.6x in the case of the humbucker. I.e. with the humbucker, all notes played will produce a voltage that is a correspondingly higher percentage of that produced by a firmly strummed open chord, in comparison to the single coil.

    That said, I think what I have noticed is more a function of the higher output - especially the peak - given by a humbucker. For example, let's say that one adjusts one's amp so our single coil is causing the sound to just start to break up when the pickup is outputting 70% of its maximum. I.e. 105mv. This means that at peak output there is only 45mv 'going spare'  to clip the preamp.

    With the humbucker, if we set the amp up in the same way, it will start clipping at 518mv (70% of 740). However, in this case there is another 225mv available to clip the amp / distort the sound, 5x the 'spare' voltage the single coil gives.

    So, a single coil will give a wider dynamic range when clean, but a humbucker will generally have more 'oomph' available to clip the amp and distort the sound, especially so for a relatively hot pickup like a Fullshred.

    Or something like that.... :)

    Perhaps a hot single coil pickup would be 'the best of both worlds'. Or may be just a master of nothing!


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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 2177
    edited September 2017
    I'd always assumed that picking dynamics also referred to tonal variations as well as level variations.

    Things like variations in how much you dig in, pick angle and how much snap is added to the pick from the skin on the fingers and thumb holding the pick. Plus how much harmonic is squeezed, how much muting is applied, how much you push down with the pick (or pull up with the fingers) to slap the strings into the frets...
    It's not a competition.
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  • mike_lmike_l Frets: 5700
    I get more dynamics from using 'buckers. I'm used to getting more dynamics from them. I've seen others using singles who can get more dynamics from them. 

    Ringleader of the Cambridge cartel, pedal champ and king of the dirt boxes (down to 21) 

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  • AlegreeAlegree Frets: 665
    tFB Trader
    I have tried to find some numbers relating to the output of pickups in the hope that might shed light on what is going on here.

    Apparently, "DiMarzio's lowest output humbucker has an output of 178 mV. Their highest output humbucker, the X2N, has an output of 510 mV." "Their lowest output single coil pickup has an output of 93 mV and the highest output single coil is rated at 325 mV."

    So, it is quite possible to have both a relatively low output humbucker and  a relatively high output single coil.

    As to their responsiveness in terms of variations in their output, single coils do seem to have a greater range. One set of measurements I found gives a reading of 36mv for a open A string, plucked hard with a GFS Pro-Tube lipstick single coil in the middle position (resistance 6.2k) and a reading of 150mv for a firmly strummed open A chord.

    For a Artec Vintage Humbucker (resistance 8.3k) the corresponding readings were 280mv and 740mv. (These are the peak transient readings corresponding to the peak attack of the note.)

    From the above figures it seems that single coils do have a wider dynamic range, given that 150 mv is 4.2 x 36mv, as opposed to 2.6x in the case of the humbucker. I.e. with the humbucker, all notes played will produce a voltage that is a correspondingly higher percentage of that produced by a firmly strummed open chord, in comparison to the single coil.

    That said, I think what I have noticed is more a function of the higher output - especially the peak - given by a humbucker. For example, let's say that one adjusts one's amp so our single coil is causing the sound to just start to break up when the pickup is outputting 70% of its maximum. I.e. 105mv. This means that at peak output there is only 45mv 'going spare'  to clip the preamp.

    With the humbucker, if we set the amp up in the same way, it will start clipping at 518mv (70% of 740). However, in this case there is another 225mv available to clip the amp / distort the sound, 5x the 'spare' voltage the single coil gives.

    So, a single coil will give a wider dynamic range when clean, but a humbucker will generally have more 'oomph' available to clip the amp and distort the sound, especially so for a relatively hot pickup like a Fullshred.

    Or something like that.... :)

    Perhaps a hot single coil pickup would be 'the best of both worlds'. Or may be just a master of nothing!


    Yeah that sounds correct.

    I think you can perceive them as not having the same amount of dynamics if you're accustom to humbucker dynamics and can't as accurately control them with an unfamiliar pickup.

    What you need is a single that has humbucker like characteristics. Stacks or higher output singles would put you closer. While they may technically have less dynamics, if you're able to more accurately control them, you'd probably perceive them as having more.
    Alegree pickups & guitar supplies - www.alegree.co.uk
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  • Gassage said:
    Totally the opposite, in my experience.
    Same here
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  • Jez6345789Jez6345789 Frets: 1756
    edited September 2017
    I might be missing the point here but as I see it you just need to be playing lighter with the single coil and have adjusted the preamp on the amp higher  than you would with humbuckers to get the amp to drive or you could simply use a clean boost always on  to drive the single coil To the amp harder.

    as I said might be missing the  point but I expect to adjust the amp very differently when I play a strat rather than say the humbucker guitars not sure about voltages etc just fiddle till I get the pre amp and power I hit the strings with to sound expressive. 
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  • prowlaprowla Frets: 4896
    +Whatever to the folks saying single-coils are more dynamic.

    Also depends upon strings - 10s are good if you like to get physical.
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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9984
    tFB Trader
    prowla said:
    +Whatever to the folks saying single-coils are more dynamic.

    Also depends upon strings - 10s are good if you like to get physical.
    Single coils usually have less turns of wire than humbuckers ... a Strat has typically around 8000 ... whereas even a low output humbucker has around 10,000. The more windings you add the more natural compression a pickup will have, therefore the more the pickup will 'smooth' playing dynamics. 
    A 10,000 turn single coil using the same gauge wire as a 10,000 turn humbucker will have a similar degree of natural compression. It is true then that humbuckers and single coils have the same dynamics as humbuckers ... if all else is equal ... but all else seldom is. Typically single coils will have less windings, often of thicker wire, and add to that 'directly' applied magnetic fields, rather than magnets sat between the coils ... this will mean that most single coil pickups will have a potential dynamic range bigger than many humbuckers ... however this is not due to them being single coils, as if you make a super low wind humbucker, it will display dynamic capabilities similar to a equally wound single coil ... the Filtertron is a case in point.

    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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  • it reminds me of the velocity curve sensitivity settings on a midi piano instruments:

    when "turn up" the curve from "normal", most notes are near the max velocity, so there is less variation in volume and tone, and most notes sound the same

    to me this is what (most) humbuckers are like compared to (most) single coils:
    SC seem to have more light and shade for me, the difference between quietest and loudest note is larger than with a HB. Also there is more variation in tone - it feels more like an acoustic guitar in that respect
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    prowla said:

    Also depends upon strings - 10s are good if you like to get physical.
    11s are better :).

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • ICBM said:
    prowla said:

    Also depends upon strings - 10s are good if you like to get physical.
    11s are better :).
    9s are fine for me :)
    It's not a competition.
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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9984
    edited September 2017 tFB Trader
    it reminds me of the velocity curve sensitivity settings on a midi piano instruments:

    when "turn up" the curve from "normal", most notes are near the max velocity, so there is less variation in volume and tone, and most notes sound the same

    to me this is what (most) humbuckers are like compared to (most) single coils:
    SC seem to have more light and shade for me, the difference between quietest and loudest note is larger than with a HB. Also there is more variation in tone - it feels more like an acoustic guitar in that respect
    This is generally right ... but this isn't a function of them being humbuckers, it's a result of the design route the have taken to be humbuckers. 
    The P90 was 10,000 turns, and when Gibson produced the PAF to be in essence a humbucking replacement for it, they split those 10,000 turns over two coils to make a humbucker. As it happens the P90 has very similar natural compression to a low wind humbucker, but the twin magnet design and coil size and shape help to make the P90 'different' to it's 'replacement' in many ways.
    When Ray Butts designed the Filtertron he came from another perspective, and made both coils only total about the same wind level as one Gibson coil. As we know, classic 50s Filtertron's are only about the same output as a Strat pickup, so the dynamic range is is far more like a single coil. He kept the output up by using a big magnet ... around twice the size of a Gibson HB magnet.


    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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  • Three-ColourSunburstThree-ColourSunburst Frets: 1139
    edited September 2017
    Thanks for all the great comments. I now understand much better what I was experiencing. Having played around a little more I do agree that single coils (at least low output single coils) have a wider dynamic range that a hot humbucker (i.e. are less compressed) allowing finer control over the dynamics of one's output. In comparison a hot humbucker is much more compressed, giving a high signal strength even when playing a single string or  using lighter picking, and having a smaller difference in output between a single string and full chord.

    What I took for a reduced dynamic range was simply the effect of the higher output of a humbucker over a typical single coil, which will tend to drive the pre-amp harder when you really dig in by virtue of its sheer output.

    Is have also learned that, in order to get the best out of both types of pickups one must adapt one's playing style, which is something I have never even considered before.

    Again, thanks!
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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9984
    tFB Trader
    Thanks for all the great comments. I now understand much better what I was experiencing. Having played around a little more I do agree that single coils (at least low output single coils) have a wider dynamic range that a hot humbucker (i.e. are less compressed) allowing finer control over the dynamics of one's output. In comparison a hot humbucker is much more compressed, giving a high signal strength even when playing a single string or  using lighter picking, and having a smaller difference in output between a single string and full chord.

    What I took for a reduced dynamic range was simply the effect of the higher output of a humbucker over a typical single coil, which will tend to drive the pre-amp harder when you really dig in by virtue of its sheer output.

    Is have also learned that, in order to get the best out of both types of pickups one must adapt one's playing style, which is something I have never even considered before.

    Again, thanks!
    Glad all us folks could be of help ... :-)
    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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