So many technique issues.. what's the answer?

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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079

    Matt_McG said:
    I had one or two lessons with him some years back (5 or 6 years). I think my wife was pregnant at the time, and I just never found the time after. I enjoyed and got a lot out of the lesson(s), though, so I'd definitely go back. I wouldn't particularly mind the price, but I wouldn't be expecting to be having weekly lessons (which is not really how tutors like that work).

    His ElectricCampfire site is very good, if you have the time to do the stuff.
    If you’re a total beginner or not been playing for lomg then weekly lessons are a must with me. Everyone that took fortnightly lessons or less has quit and I’m not surprised.

    Obviously if you’ve played for a while and know most of the basics to intermediate/advanced level and just want to polish a particular area then maybe every other week may suffice.

    I tend to find anything less than weekly just encourages them to practice less, however.
     
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  • andyozandyoz Frets: 718
    I resisted lessons for too long.  Took the plunge and found it's even the small things they can pick up 'watching' you play that can make a huge difference.

    Mine got me using my pinky finger and it took a month or two but now I couldn't imagine not having that strength there.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    andyoz said:
    I resisted lessons for too long.  Took the plunge and found it's even the small things they can pick up 'watching' you play that can make a huge difference.

    Mine got me using my pinky finger and it took a month or two but now I couldn't imagine not having that strength there.
    Many of the ones who come to me can already play, I don't know why, maybe I intimidate beginners too much. But I often spot bad habits and basic things they haven't learnt (like simple rhythm reading) which affects their development.
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  • andyozandyoz Frets: 718
    Yes, that was me.  My teacher actually gave me something pretty easy to play and it showed me up!  Lesson learned
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    Its really strange as I see they can play something quite complicated by ear, but when it comes to simpler stuff, e.g 4 strums to the bar or 1 upstrum on one of the beats they can't do it. They don't know how long a chord is meant to last, 1 bar, 1/2 a bar, 2 bars, etc etc.
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Its really strange as I see they can play something quite complicated by ear, but when it comes to simpler stuff, e.g 4 strums to the bar or 1 upstrum on one of the beats they can't do it. They don't know how long a chord is meant to last, 1 bar, 1/2 a bar, 2 bars, etc etc.
    I've seen this quite a lot too..
    players focusing only on the hand fretting the notes, and not enough on the other....
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • HAL9000HAL9000 Frets: 9551
    edited June 2018
    If you’re already playing in a covers band, then you’re probably far better than you think you are. It’s easy to be you’re own worst critic and you’re right to want to improve, but also bear in mind that some even quite famous players are actually quite sloppy - it’s more rock’n’roll that way.
    I play guitar because I enjoy it rather than because I’m any good at it
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    edited June 2018
    Clarky said:
    Its really strange as I see they can play something quite complicated by ear, but when it comes to simpler stuff, e.g 4 strums to the bar or 1 upstrum on one of the beats they can't do it. They don't know how long a chord is meant to last, 1 bar, 1/2 a bar, 2 bars, etc etc.
    I've seen this quite a lot too..
    players focusing only on the hand fretting the notes, and not enough on the other....
    90-95% of guitar playing will be rhythm guitar, yet many choose to skip the basics of rhythm playing and go to the more "cooler" stuff of soloing and stuff. Even the most famous riffs are all rhythmical. How many times have you seen "Smells Like Teen Spirit" not played correctly or even the "Sex on Fire" riff not starting on the + of 4?

    Usually in trial lessons with people who can already play a bit I give them a chord chart taken from the RGT grades and get them to try and play through it without stopping. 8/10 they will stop in the first 4 bars cos they haven't taken into account a split bar, or it 1 chord per bar and also the wrong 7th chord type. There's also several timing issues as they struggle to keep to a 4/4 beat, in the end they can't do it. Baffling, yet they can somehow fumble their way around a minor pentatonic to a backing track (albeit out of tune bends and wrong notes).
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  • Matt_McGMatt_McG Frets: 321
    For me, when I went for my couple of electric lessons (ever) I'd already been playing 20 years or more, and had several years of serious classical guitar lessons (grade exams, etc.). So I can read music, and keep time. What I lacked (and still do, if I'm honest) is the ability to improvise fluently over changes (jazz style progressions, I mean). So, seeing someone in a specific area, occasionally, made a lot of sense. 

    Although I have had my eyes opened working on some funk stuff, where rather than just playing impressionistically (which will be in time and sound vaguely like the original part, etc.) I've tried to follow a transcription exactly --- upstroke with emphasis on the 3rd 16th note of beat 1, downstroke with emphasis on 2nd 16th note of beat 2, etc. Which is basically a more complicated version of the exercises described in the last couple of comments. And found doing that _really_ hard, because, for example, I tend to have the habit of starting each beat (say, each group of 4 x 16th notes) on a downstroke, and accenting an upbeat when it's not falling on the 2nd and 4th note of a group feels slightly odd. And yet, following it exactly, really does make a difference to the precise groove. I've occasionally thought of working through some drum tutors (on guitar) for that reason.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    Not sure if rhythm slashes counts as "reading music"? If its sheet music with pitch I think that's "music". So many people are scared they have read music when doing lessons, I've never ever taught anyone to read sheet music (treble clef EGBDF etc). I do show some how to read basic rhythms though.
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  • Matt_McGMatt_McG Frets: 321
    I'm guessing, for most people, just reading basic rhythms is fine (and an incredibly useful skill). 

    While we are talking about skills, I wonder if anyone has good tips for musical memory? Because I'm an OK reader, I tend to be totally rubbish at genuinely memorising anything longer than about 16 bars.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    I always thought it was different, same with chord charts. Not really "reading music" just a bunch of letters!

    As far as memory goes, playing in a band is good, where you have to perform songs without charts. Easy for me to say as I've been playing in rock bands for 13 years now and not once have I used a chart. Breaking up the bars into phrases helps, usually a 16 bar pop chorus is in 2 halves of 8, e.g the lyrics sung twice, or something.
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Clarky said:
    Its really strange as I see they can play something quite complicated by ear, but when it comes to simpler stuff, e.g 4 strums to the bar or 1 upstrum on one of the beats they can't do it. They don't know how long a chord is meant to last, 1 bar, 1/2 a bar, 2 bars, etc etc.
    I've seen this quite a lot too..
    players focusing only on the hand fretting the notes, and not enough on the other....
    90-95% of guitar playing will be rhythm guitar, yet many choose to skip the basics of rhythm playing and go to the more "cooler" stuff of soloing and stuff. Even the most famous riffs are all rhythmical. How many times have you seen "Smells Like Teen Spirit" not played correctly or even the "Sex on Fire" riff not starting on the + of 4?

    Usually in trial lessons with people who can already play a bit I give them a chord chart taken from the RGT grades and get them to try and play through it without stopping. 8/10 they will stop in the first 4 bars cos they haven't taken into account a split bar, or it 1 chord per bar and also the wrong 7th chord type. There's also several timing issues as they struggle to keep to a 4/4 beat, in the end they can't do it. Baffling, yet they can somehow fumble their way around a minor pentatonic to a backing track (albeit out of tune bends and wrong notes).
    timing and phrasing are things I pay a great deal of attention to..
    when my students start nailing all that, they may not be blisteringly quick, but they certainly notice how much more polished they sound..
    and of course, as you say... rhythm playing is a guitarist's main job.. so it's the thing they need to be most solid at..
    I worked out once that out within the 90 minute set I play, I spend less than 10 minutes soloing
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    Clarky said:
    Clarky said:
    Its really strange as I see they can play something quite complicated by ear, but when it comes to simpler stuff, e.g 4 strums to the bar or 1 upstrum on one of the beats they can't do it. They don't know how long a chord is meant to last, 1 bar, 1/2 a bar, 2 bars, etc etc.
    I've seen this quite a lot too..
    players focusing only on the hand fretting the notes, and not enough on the other....
    90-95% of guitar playing will be rhythm guitar, yet many choose to skip the basics of rhythm playing and go to the more "cooler" stuff of soloing and stuff. Even the most famous riffs are all rhythmical. How many times have you seen "Smells Like Teen Spirit" not played correctly or even the "Sex on Fire" riff not starting on the + of 4?

    Usually in trial lessons with people who can already play a bit I give them a chord chart taken from the RGT grades and get them to try and play through it without stopping. 8/10 they will stop in the first 4 bars cos they haven't taken into account a split bar, or it 1 chord per bar and also the wrong 7th chord type. There's also several timing issues as they struggle to keep to a 4/4 beat, in the end they can't do it. Baffling, yet they can somehow fumble their way around a minor pentatonic to a backing track (albeit out of tune bends and wrong notes).
    timing and phrasing are things I pay a great deal of attention to..
    when my students start nailing all that, they may not be blisteringly quick, but they certainly notice how much more polished they sound..
    and of course, as you say... rhythm playing is a guitarist's main job.. so it's the thing they need to be most solid at..
    I worked out once that out within the 90 minute set I play, I spend less than 10 minutes soloing
    I always work on timing from the off. Doesn’t matter how fast you can play or what blues licks you have if it ain’t in time or have any good groove forget it.

    I’ve helped a lot of so so players improve their timing and they do notice it, when the phrase or riff is in time and locks in with the metronome or backing track they kinda nod their head in time and get that musical groove/inner metronome.

    And yes it’s true about a set being mostly chords and strumming!
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Clarky said:
    Clarky said:
    Its really strange as I see they can play something quite complicated by ear, but when it comes to simpler stuff, e.g 4 strums to the bar or 1 upstrum on one of the beats they can't do it. They don't know how long a chord is meant to last, 1 bar, 1/2 a bar, 2 bars, etc etc.
    I've seen this quite a lot too..
    players focusing only on the hand fretting the notes, and not enough on the other....
    90-95% of guitar playing will be rhythm guitar, yet many choose to skip the basics of rhythm playing and go to the more "cooler" stuff of soloing and stuff. Even the most famous riffs are all rhythmical. How many times have you seen "Smells Like Teen Spirit" not played correctly or even the "Sex on Fire" riff not starting on the + of 4?

    Usually in trial lessons with people who can already play a bit I give them a chord chart taken from the RGT grades and get them to try and play through it without stopping. 8/10 they will stop in the first 4 bars cos they haven't taken into account a split bar, or it 1 chord per bar and also the wrong 7th chord type. There's also several timing issues as they struggle to keep to a 4/4 beat, in the end they can't do it. Baffling, yet they can somehow fumble their way around a minor pentatonic to a backing track (albeit out of tune bends and wrong notes).
    timing and phrasing are things I pay a great deal of attention to..
    when my students start nailing all that, they may not be blisteringly quick, but they certainly notice how much more polished they sound..
    and of course, as you say... rhythm playing is a guitarist's main job.. so it's the thing they need to be most solid at..
    I worked out once that out within the 90 minute set I play, I spend less than 10 minutes soloing
    I always work on timing from the off. Doesn’t matter how fast you can play or what blues licks you have if it ain’t in time or have any good groove forget it.

    I’ve helped a lot of so so players improve their timing and they do notice it, when the phrase or riff is in time and locks in with the metronome or backing track they kinda nod their head in time and get that musical groove/inner metronome.

    And yes it’s true about a set being mostly chords and strumming!
    IMHO, I've always considered that there are two principle areas to nail to get that polished sound
    1 - timing / phrasing [which are of course deeply related]
    2 - bending / vibrato [considering that they are variations of the same fundamental technique]

    these two little gems always seem to me to be the most overlooked when people learn to play
    yet these two areas are the ones that really seem expose a new player the most
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    Clarky said:
    Clarky said:
    Clarky said:
    Its really strange as I see they can play something quite complicated by ear, but when it comes to simpler stuff, e.g 4 strums to the bar or 1 upstrum on one of the beats they can't do it. They don't know how long a chord is meant to last, 1 bar, 1/2 a bar, 2 bars, etc etc.
    I've seen this quite a lot too..
    players focusing only on the hand fretting the notes, and not enough on the other....
    90-95% of guitar playing will be rhythm guitar, yet many choose to skip the basics of rhythm playing and go to the more "cooler" stuff of soloing and stuff. Even the most famous riffs are all rhythmical. How many times have you seen "Smells Like Teen Spirit" not played correctly or even the "Sex on Fire" riff not starting on the + of 4?

    Usually in trial lessons with people who can already play a bit I give them a chord chart taken from the RGT grades and get them to try and play through it without stopping. 8/10 they will stop in the first 4 bars cos they haven't taken into account a split bar, or it 1 chord per bar and also the wrong 7th chord type. There's also several timing issues as they struggle to keep to a 4/4 beat, in the end they can't do it. Baffling, yet they can somehow fumble their way around a minor pentatonic to a backing track (albeit out of tune bends and wrong notes).
    timing and phrasing are things I pay a great deal of attention to..
    when my students start nailing all that, they may not be blisteringly quick, but they certainly notice how much more polished they sound..
    and of course, as you say... rhythm playing is a guitarist's main job.. so it's the thing they need to be most solid at..
    I worked out once that out within the 90 minute set I play, I spend less than 10 minutes soloing
    I always work on timing from the off. Doesn’t matter how fast you can play or what blues licks you have if it ain’t in time or have any good groove forget it.

    I’ve helped a lot of so so players improve their timing and they do notice it, when the phrase or riff is in time and locks in with the metronome or backing track they kinda nod their head in time and get that musical groove/inner metronome.

    And yes it’s true about a set being mostly chords and strumming!
    IMHO, I've always considered that there are two principle areas to nail to get that polished sound
    1 - timing / phrasing [which are of course deeply related]
    2 - bending / vibrato [considering that they are variations of the same fundamental technique]

    these two little gems always seem to me to be the most overlooked when people learn to play
    yet these two areas are the ones that really seem expose a new player the most
    I can relate to you there, these are things I've cleaned up on myself when playing to a high level, its the difference between "performance standard" and the average Joe who plays in their bedroom.
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Clarky said:
    Clarky said:
    Clarky said:
    Its really strange as I see they can play something quite complicated by ear, but when it comes to simpler stuff, e.g 4 strums to the bar or 1 upstrum on one of the beats they can't do it. They don't know how long a chord is meant to last, 1 bar, 1/2 a bar, 2 bars, etc etc.
    I've seen this quite a lot too..
    players focusing only on the hand fretting the notes, and not enough on the other....
    90-95% of guitar playing will be rhythm guitar, yet many choose to skip the basics of rhythm playing and go to the more "cooler" stuff of soloing and stuff. Even the most famous riffs are all rhythmical. How many times have you seen "Smells Like Teen Spirit" not played correctly or even the "Sex on Fire" riff not starting on the + of 4?

    Usually in trial lessons with people who can already play a bit I give them a chord chart taken from the RGT grades and get them to try and play through it without stopping. 8/10 they will stop in the first 4 bars cos they haven't taken into account a split bar, or it 1 chord per bar and also the wrong 7th chord type. There's also several timing issues as they struggle to keep to a 4/4 beat, in the end they can't do it. Baffling, yet they can somehow fumble their way around a minor pentatonic to a backing track (albeit out of tune bends and wrong notes).
    timing and phrasing are things I pay a great deal of attention to..
    when my students start nailing all that, they may not be blisteringly quick, but they certainly notice how much more polished they sound..
    and of course, as you say... rhythm playing is a guitarist's main job.. so it's the thing they need to be most solid at..
    I worked out once that out within the 90 minute set I play, I spend less than 10 minutes soloing
    I always work on timing from the off. Doesn’t matter how fast you can play or what blues licks you have if it ain’t in time or have any good groove forget it.

    I’ve helped a lot of so so players improve their timing and they do notice it, when the phrase or riff is in time and locks in with the metronome or backing track they kinda nod their head in time and get that musical groove/inner metronome.

    And yes it’s true about a set being mostly chords and strumming!
    IMHO, I've always considered that there are two principle areas to nail to get that polished sound
    1 - timing / phrasing [which are of course deeply related]
    2 - bending / vibrato [considering that they are variations of the same fundamental technique]

    these two little gems always seem to me to be the most overlooked when people learn to play
    yet these two areas are the ones that really seem expose a new player the most
    I can relate to you there, these are things I've cleaned up on myself when playing to a high level, its the difference between "performance standard" and the average Joe who plays in their bedroom.
    and the fellas that neglect this and head straight for the flash stuff never see to realise that they are building castles on sand..
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • Im over 20 years into picking up a guitar and I'm still very very average. I can read music although only on piano. It would take me too long on guitar to work out where the notes were on the fretboard. My pitch is pretty good and I my theory is grade 5 level yet my playing is shite .I think it comes down to a lack of structure in my practice and a lack of discipline. Im going over Justin's intermediate course at present to find out where my problems lie. I'm keen to improve now though and recognise what I need to do. I've put off buying any new gear until I feel I can reward myself with it. 
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    Clarky said:

    IMHO, I've always considered that there are two principle areas to nail to get that polished sound
    1 - timing / phrasing [which are of course deeply related]
    2 - bending / vibrato [considering that they are variations of the same fundamental technique]

    these two little gems always seem to me to be the most overlooked when people learn to play
    yet these two areas are the ones that really seem expose a new player the most
    Yup, this.
    Also playing in situations other than at home alone.
    I see a lot of players who can play well by themselves, or in front of one or two people.

    Put them on a stage with an audience and it all goes to shit.
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  • I've had a few learners who claim to play it perfectly when they're at home but in front of me they freeze.
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