The FB BJJ / MA Thread

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  • After mentioning Christian Graugart and his book “BJJ Globetrotter”...

    what are your favourite Martial Arts books?

    I really enjoyed
    Pyjama Game: Journey into Judo by Mark Law. Lots of history and backstory of judo written by a guy who took up the sport in middle age. 
    Angry white pyjamas by Robert Twigger is similar- a Brit enrols in the Japanese Police Aikido course & details his experience. 

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  • MyrandaMyranda Frets: 2940
    The Krav I did routinely had CRAZY sparring sessions. Being attacked by 5 guys with bats? Being mugged at gun point? 
    I particularly enjoyed a class where we all had to bring a white t-shirt we then fought with marker pens instead of knives. Moral of the story: regardless of how good you are, get in a knife fight & you're getting stabbed. Probably fatally. 

    In the few altercations I've ever been in I ALWAYS used my Krav rather than anything else- it's not a sport. Krav is about ending a confrontation and getting away. Some of the techniques are brutal, but work. 

    I agree that there is a mythology around it though & that there are any number of other systems that are probably as good. 
    Although - almost no one is ever in a knife fight - normally someone just gets stabbed, or someone is trying to stab someone... if you're an honest legally sensible type you wont have a knife on you for fighting should someone pull one. And most people trying to kill you will pull knives more subtly than someone making a show of a knife (both people I know who got stabbed in fights say the knife was never on display... just a moment where "huh, my side hurts a lot, and is now all wet"). I think a better technique for knives is learn to run faster than other people

    I personally think that any system that promotes simple blocks/strikes or low kicks (anything about groin/knee makes you too unstable in a proper tussle), some ground work, proper sparring etc over "chi", "qi", mystical mumbo jumbo or other flowery non-sense should do fine... with one proviso: sparring in any form has a tendency to have a lack of authenticity in many ways (look at the tai chi master/student thing with little old guys flinging students twice their size about - it's often the student doing most of the flinging... or Aikido where people throw themselves into the throw a little/lot more than a real opponent would)... which is my personal take on why sport martial artists do SO well against any more traditional one (even though on the streets across the world there are countless stories of the same arts saving someone's life against multiple attackers..) - sports people have that drive to win at all times, they train not to get a belt/improve themselves, but to destroy/annihilate/win. ... personal theory based on my own experience, not empirical evidence or comprehensive study
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  • FuengiFuengi Frets: 2849
    Fuengi said:
    Has anyone been on a BJJ Camp?

    There are several knocking around and the idea of rolling every day for a week whilst combining with yoga / beach / skiing / sightseeing quite appeals. 
    Christian Graugart (?) runs some under the BJJ Globetrotters banner. He’s a really cool guy-if you’ve read his book “BJJ Globetrotter” ( an excellent read) my friend Dan is the Scottish guy he meets in SE Asia. 
    His camps look great, I know a few people who’ve done them and they all speak highly of the experience. 

    https://www.bjjglobetrotters.com/

    I'd looked at them. Good to know they come recommended. 

    The only two martial arts books I have read / am reading are;

    Zen Jui Jitsu (White to Blue) by Oliver Staark - really useful guide to what Jui Jitsu is for beginners.

    Saulo Ribiero's Jui Jitsu University. Excellent technical guide to positions. 
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  • Sorry, I should have said “fight involving a knife” instead of “knife fight”. One knife is one too many! Thankfully running away is a good form of defence.
    A LOT of my class mates were bouncers in City Centre Manchester- they specifically asked for more knife/bottle training as that’s what they dealt with on a daily basis.
    I think that’s why we had such a “practical” approach- if you pulled your punches the bouncers would laugh at you (& the instructor was ex-army too so didn’t mind blasting us a bit). 

    There IS a lot to be said for keeping things simple- that’s part of what Krav (& any other good self defence classes)are based on gross movements rather than “this is the Wushi finger hold- place your pinkie here, and extend your index finger here...” in stressful situations “grip, rip and hit” are more likely to work. 

    Its one of the things I love about BJJ, I train full strength against a fully resisting opponent regularly. I KNOW my technique works as I’ve used it against someone who usually also knows what I’m trying for. 
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  • Good thread, thanks for posting - interesting to read about all the participant's experiences. 
    I've only done boxing in my youth, no Martian arts currently.
    I follow professional martial arts and my ex did MMA so been to the fair few shows here in UK.
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  • FuengiFuengi Frets: 2849
    So, had an interesting experience at BJJ class tonight. I got paired to roll with a new white belt who has been rolling for only a couple of weeks. Without being a dick, it was like I had a super power and he didn't. I could do whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted to. 

    Having only rolled to date with more or equally experienced guys it was a revelation, but very quickly became unsatisfying.

    Far more enjoyable was taking stock and trying to help him understand what he was trying to achieve and how he might do it. 

    Reflecting now with a little satisfaction on what a few months of sold training has achieved.
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  • PSN id : snakey33stoo
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  • CHRISB50CHRISB50 Frets: 4287


    Tai Chi for me too. 


    Silk PJ's all round.

    I can't help about the shape I'm in, I can't sing I ain't pretty and my legs are thin

    But don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answer that you want me to

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  • munckeemunckee Frets: 12254
    I did old school japanese ju jitsu for a number of years and used to go to various camps where you could try different martial arts, kendo and bushido were particularly painful I seem to remember.  I did aikido once which involoved being thrown around and the instructor insisted on no mats as that would make sure you landed properly - he was right to be fair.
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  • Matt_McGMatt_McG Frets: 321
    @Fuengi I used to fence at a club that had. LoD of GB team members. They just flopped about barely playing attention and I could never touch them.

    Then one day I fenced another intermediate person like myself and it was like I had super powers. I could see every move, block and strike at will. It was freaky. Like they were moving in slow motion and I could see their intentions in advance. Didn’t happen very often, but when it did it felt amazing.

    Never really happened with kickboxing. I was fine. Neither terrible or really good. I did fine in sparring. But I never had that sense of total superiority.
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  • beed84beed84 Frets: 2403
    I've been doing Wing Chun for the past five years – it’s one of the best decisions I’ve made in my life.

    For me any martial art isn’t really about fighting, and if that’s the mindset a practitioner has when studying whatever style they do, then for the most part I’d be inclined to say they’ve got it wrong.

    A martial art is indeed an art form. Although they are designed with combat and self-defence in mind, I personally don’t believe those aspects should be at the forefront. These systems should be honoured and kept pure. In studying and practicing a style it gives rise to a whole host of positives, which are then available to the person practicing it. Respect, discipline, problem solving, good health, and all round good character to name a few. If all a student gets after a class is “I learned such and such a move and it would totally destroy someone” then that shouldn’t be the case. I’m exaggerating for effect but you get the point.

    And who'd want to be in a fight situation let alone fight someone anyway? Even if that were the case, the likelihood of performing a drill or technique as done in class would be pretty slim. You’d hope that after training regularly that the odds would be in your favour and muscle memory would kick in thus preventing you from getting decked. Maybe, just maybe. But with all the chemicals pumping around your body in this fight or flight situation, losing fine motor skills as result, let alone the unpredictability of how the situation will ensue, even if you did perform some wing chun or whatever, it would most probably lack grace and be a far cry from what you see in the movies. The reality is it won't look like martial arts at all. Seriously, if I smelt a whiff of trouble, I would want to get away. If someone pulled out a knife I would give them what they want and definitely do a runner if I could.

    This all sounds pessimistic but it shouldn’t. For me, having a martial art keeps me upright and provides me with a sense of balance. It’s like Sisyphus' daily occurrence of have to push that bloody boulder up the hill for it to only roll back down again. There is a certain pointlessness in training regularly; however, the purpose of doing so provides meaning. Like I said, it keeps me upright in more ways than one.
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  • FuengiFuengi Frets: 2849
    Back to reality on Thursday night, rolling with high stripe white belts and blue belts I was tapping like Eddie Van Halen.

    I did hard rolls on Saturday / Monday / Thursday and got another class this morning plus yoga every day this week and felt pretty tired on Thursday night. 

    One more this morning then a glass of wine tonight and a couple of days off. 

     
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  • munckeemunckee Frets: 12254
    beed84 said:
    I've been doing Wing Chun for the past five years – it’s one of the best decisions I’ve made in my life.

    For me any martial art isn’t really about fighting, and if that’s the mindset a practitioner has when studying whatever style they do, then for the most part I’d be inclined to say they’ve got it wrong.

    A martial art is indeed an art form. Although they are designed with combat and self-defence in mind, I personally don’t believe those aspects should be at the forefront. These systems should be honoured and kept pure. In studying and practicing a style it gives rise to a whole host of positives, which are then available to the person practicing it. Respect, discipline, problem solving, good health, and all round good character to name a few. If all a student gets after a class is “I learned such and such a move and it would totally destroy someone” then that shouldn’t be the case. I’m exaggerating for effect but you get the point.

    And who'd want to be in a fight situation let alone fight someone anyway? Even if that were the case, the likelihood of performing a drill or technique as done in class would be pretty slim. You’d hope that after training regularly that the odds would be in your favour and muscle memory would kick in thus preventing you from getting decked. Maybe, just maybe. But with all the chemicals pumping around your body in this fight or flight situation, losing fine motor skills as result, let alone the unpredictability of how the situation will ensue, even if you did perform some wing chun or whatever, it would most probably lack grace and be a far cry from what you see in the movies. The reality is it won't look like martial arts at all. Seriously, if I smelt a whiff of trouble, I would want to get away. If someone pulled out a knife I would give them what they want and definitely do a runner if I could.

    This all sounds pessimistic but it shouldn’t. For me, having a martial art keeps me upright and provides me with a sense of balance. It’s like Sisyphus' daily occurrence of have to push that bloody boulder up the hill for it to only roll back down again. There is a certain pointlessness in training regularly; however, the purpose of doing so provides meaning. Like I said, it keeps me upright in more ways than one.
    The guy who taught me ju jitsu was 8th dan and trained all day every day. He said one of the few times he ever used it a few guys outside a club started on him, he blocked the first punch and took the guy out with a.straight punch breaking every bone in his hand in the process. 
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  • MyrandaMyranda Frets: 2940
    I got BJJ... Yay me I guess.

    munckee said:
    I did old school japanese ju jitsu for a number of years and used to go to various camps where you could try different martial arts, kendo and bushido were particularly painful I seem to remember.  I did aikido once which involoved being thrown around and the instructor insisted on no mats as that would make sure you landed properly - he was right to be fair.
    I'd have thought that it would also make you a little less likely to really throw a partner for fear of actually damage them, so you wind up training muscle memory to be less than fully aggressive... at least to some extent. Aikido is also a good example of partners throwing themselves into throws... so some wont get techniques perfectly right - a resistant opponent might not want to be thrown and may prove harder to move than expected.

    That said, as someone who's rotator cuff was torn by a bad kimura and lots of brute force (during a non-competitive training session) not all techniques need to be perfect. 

    beed84 said:
    I've been doing Wing Chun for the past five years – it’s one of the best decisions I’ve made in my life.

    For me any martial art isn’t really about fighting, and if that’s the mindset a practitioner has when studying whatever style they do, then for the most part I’d be inclined to say they’ve got it wrong.

    A martial art is indeed an art form. Although they are designed with combat and self-defence in mind, I personally don’t believe those aspects should be at the forefront. These systems should be honoured and kept pure. In studying and practicing a style it gives rise to a whole host of positives, which are then available to the person practicing it. Respect, discipline, problem solving, good health, and all round good character to name a few. If all a student gets after a class is “I learned such and such a move and it would totally destroy someone” then that shouldn’t be the case. I’m exaggerating for effect but you get the point.

    And who'd want to be in a fight situation let alone fight someone anyway? Even if that were the case, the likelihood of performing a drill or technique as done in class would be pretty slim. You’d hope that after training regularly that the odds would be in your favour and muscle memory would kick in thus preventing you from getting decked. Maybe, just maybe. But with all the chemicals pumping around your body in this fight or flight situation, losing fine motor skills as result, let alone the unpredictability of how the situation will ensue, even if you did perform some wing chun or whatever, it would most probably lack grace and be a far cry from what you see in the movies. The reality is it won't look like martial arts at all. Seriously, if I smelt a whiff of trouble, I would want to get away. If someone pulled out a knife I would give them what they want and definitely do a runner if I could.

    This all sounds pessimistic but it shouldn’t. For me, having a martial art keeps me upright and provides me with a sense of balance. It’s like Sisyphus' daily occurrence of have to push that bloody boulder up the hill for it to only roll back down again. There is a certain pointlessness in training regularly; however, the purpose of doing so provides meaning. Like I said, it keeps me upright in more ways than one.
    You know the system you're doing has been massively changed at least twice - Ip Man scrapped all the stuff seen as useless or pretty non-sense (It was after all a traditional Chinese martial art complete with long-form arm movements), then each and every one of his students got a different version that they then teach. That's assuming none else changed it after either a woman or a whole travelling circus invented the martial art

    Keeping systems "pure" seems an unlikely attitude for a Wing Chun practitioner - just ask the people who participated in the so called "Wing Chun Wars" fights and arguments over what was proper wing chun, with organisations slating each other: We're real, everything else is crap just to steal your money... (which is entirely Ip Man's fault for teaching everyone different things).

    This is not to have a go... most martial arts have changed and evolved - and that's a good thing. 

    As for the paragraph 4 question. No one wants to get into a proper fight the point of learning a martial art is so that if it happens you're slightly less likely to be dead/maimed/injured than if you didn't learn. As for fine motor skills, you're not threading needles you're hitting someone in the face/groin/solar plexus with a fist/elbow/knee... practice enough and muscle memory does do what it's supposed to. No need for grace, just make the other person's nose look like a Jackson Pollock painting - ideally more than once. But you're right, the best option is still to flee, and in the case of knives, give them what they want... but sometimes there isn't the option, so train so hard that in the no-option scenario you get to go home in as few pieces as possible and they go in as many pieces as possible. 
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  • grungebobgrungebob Frets: 3299
    edited October 2018
    I’m not one to pick apart any martial arts as they all have something going for them but the reason I chose BJJ is because there are no katas(sp?), no practiced movements. We drill a technique so as to get the technique perfect in training so when it comes to having to use it in a match or a fight it’s applied as best you can in the given situation. No rehearsed moves strung together in a fashion that’ll be of no use. 
    my school also does fight sims (one partner has gloves on the other a gum shield) and you quickly learn the difference between sports jiu jitsu and self defence. 
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  • FuengiFuengi Frets: 2849
    I suspect the percentage of people who get into martial arts because they want to be able to protect themselves is pretty high. It certainly is what got me thinking about getting back into combat sports, after boxing in my teens and 20s, - having recently being physically threatened by someone for the first time in years.  

    However, I suspect most of those people won't stick with it. Personally, it's developed into more of a passion / hobby and the threat turned out to be idle.

    When I started BJJ my professor told me he has 5 university lecturers training under him. He said "the meatheads don't stick at it". 
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  • FuengiFuengi Frets: 2849
    Trying and failing to find a suitable tape to tape my fingers up for BJJ. What does anyone recommend?
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  • MyrandaMyranda Frets: 2940
    Fuengi said:
    Trying and failing to find a suitable tape to tape my fingers up for BJJ. What does anyone recommend?
    Have you tried googling for "finger tape" ?
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  • I did Tang Soo Do for about 8 years (like a more traditional version of Tae Kwan Do) and was approaching my second Dan when I gave it up and tried some ju jitsu classes, then went to Krav.  Eventually some issues with my back prompted me to stop training and now I just visit the gym so I can pace myself and have less risk of injury. Krav was, in my opinion, the most likely to be beneficial in a real situation, but at my age now (approaching 50) I've opted for a less demanding form of exercise. Krav can be pretty brutal.
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  • Matt_McGMatt_McG Frets: 321
    I did some martial arts when I was younger because I wanted to be able to defend myself.

    But when I came to savate in my late 20s, I had no desire to learn something to make me bad ass, or to give me better self-defence skills. I wanted to do something that was fun and difficult. I'd also done other nominally combat sports -- like fencing -- that have no claims to self-defence skills, and enjoyed the technique and competitive side of it.

    As it happens, training hard in a martial art that does a lot of sparring (and exactly no kata or forms), and which has a pretty small technique set -- it's more like boxing (western or Thai) than it's like karate or kung fu -- probably had some decent carry over into basic self defence. If nothing else, I got used to being hit, and kicking properly with shoes on (lots of low kicking techniques).

    But I'd never recommend it to someone looking to learn self-defence. That's just not, normally, what those classes are set up to teach.
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