Jazz blues chords

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A quick (but probably quite expansive) question here on bluesy jazz progressions. I've noticed that many times in a jazz blues progression chart the stardard 12 bar blues chords will be stated however the player often plays more than one chord on each stated chord... So for example in a blues in Ab it will go:

| Ab - - - | Db - - - | Ab - - - | Ab - - - |

But then in bar 5 when it is meant to be Db for 4 beats it may use two different chords over the Db but it's not stated on the chart:

| Db - (X chord) - |

It sounds great when players do this but leaves me feeling bewildered as to what chord they're actually playing to keep the progression moving. Does anyone know whats going on here? Would they use an inversion? Substitution maybe? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited January 2019
    D dim, except it’s actually bar 6, not the 2nd half of bar 5. 

    Also on that Ab in bar 4, you can do a 251 in the target chord for bar 5 (in other words in Db), so:

    bar 4: Ebm9, Ab (alt)
    bar 5: Db 
    bar 6: D dim
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • viz said:
    D dim, except it’s actually bar 6, not the 2nd half of bar 5. 

    Also on that Ab in bar 4, you can do a 251 in the target chord for bar 5 (in other words in Db), so:

    bar 4: Ebm9, Ab (alt)
    bar 5: Db 
    bar 6: D dim
    Thanks for the reply! Any specific reason why Ebm9 instead of say Ebm6? And why Ab alt instead of A7? Is there any hard and fast rules here or is it a matter of taste? Thanks for your help.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    All taste :)
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • viz said:
    All taste :)
    Thanks again for the help
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  • I suppose my question relates to all kinds of jazz harmony. I love the way this fella plays:



    But theoretically, I have no idea what he's doing. Does anyone have any idea?
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  • DB1DB1 Frets: 5024
    An Ebm6 would work nicely in the fourth bar in the shape of a 'T-Bone' 9th, giving you a Ab9. I don't know if that's the Ebm6 shape that you meant. 
    Call me Dave.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    I suppose my question relates to all kinds of jazz harmony. I love the way this fella plays:



    But theoretically, I have no idea what he's doing. Does anyone have any idea?
    Can you identify the roots of each chord and you’re only wanting to analyse the voicing, or are the chord roots themselves tricky?
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • viz said:
    I suppose my question relates to all kinds of jazz harmony. I love the way this fella plays:



    But theoretically, I have no idea what he's doing. Does anyone have any idea?
    Can you identify the roots of each chord and you’re only wanting to analyse the voicing, or are the chord roots themselves tricky?
    For the most part I can analyse the chords and identify the root, at a quick glance I can see the first 3 chords after he stops talking appear to be Gmaj6, Abmin6, Abmin7, correct? However theoretically I don't know why those chords would be chosen
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  • See also Barry Harris Sixth Diminished scale - https://cochranemusic.com/barry-harris-6th-dim-scale-diminished

    (There's probably something better out there but I'm cooking dinner and my brain is work-rotten.)

    Actually used very widely (for example, the descending chord bit in Solo Flight by Charlie Christian) - alternating m7 (or rather M6) chords and diminished chords.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited January 2019
    kswilson89 said:
    viz said:
    I suppose my question relates to all kinds of jazz harmony. I love the way this fella plays:



    But theoretically, I have no idea what he's doing. Does anyone have any idea?
    Can you identify the roots of each chord and you’re only wanting to analyse the voicing, or are the chord roots themselves tricky?
    For the most part I can analyse the chords and identify the root, at a quick glance I can see the first 3 chords after he stops talking appear to be Gmaj6, Abmin6, Abmin7, correct? However theoretically I don't know why those chords would be chosen
    Basically yes, well it’s Ab dim (actually G#dim if you want to be picky) - he’s just going I-ii, (G to A minor (not Abmin7 by the way) with a passing chord in between (the G#dim), then back to G (but it’s a 1st inversion, so G over B ), again with a passing chord between the A-note of the ii and the B-note of the I, which is an A#dim. 

    That’s the first 5 chords; I-ii-I, with passing chords in between. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • viz said:
    kswilson89 said:
    viz said:
    I suppose my question relates to all kinds of jazz harmony. I love the way this fella plays:



    But theoretically, I have no idea what he's doing. Does anyone have any idea?
    Can you identify the roots of each chord and you’re only wanting to analyse the voicing, or are the chord roots themselves tricky?
    For the most part I can analyse the chords and identify the root, at a quick glance I can see the first 3 chords after he stops talking appear to be Gmaj6, Abmin6, Abmin7, correct? However theoretically I don't know why those chords would be chosen
    Basically yes, well it’s Ab dim (actually G#dim if you want to be picky) - he’s just going I-ii, (G to A minor) with a passing chord in between (the G#dim), then back to G (but it’s a 1st inversion, so G over B ), again with a passing chord between the ii and the I, which is an A#dim. 

    That’s the first 5 chords; I-ii-I, with passing chords in between. 
    Thanks very much. I've never seen that progression before, the I going to the ii, is it common in jazz?
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited January 2019
    Yep, for example it often sets up a 251. You have to be on some sort of chord before a 251; that chord is often a 1. (Or a 4 or a 5 or many other chords, of course. But a I-ii is definitely not odd)

    Anyhoo this intro noodling he’s doing is just that. A nice gentle intro noodle. Try analysing the song from 0:28 and see what you come up with. Cheers
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • viz said:
    Yep, for example it often sets up a 251. You have to be on some sort of chord before a 251; that chord is often a 1. (Or a 4 or a 5 or many other chords, of course. But a I-ii is definitely not odd)

    Anyhoo this intro noodling he’s doing is just that. A nice gentle intro noodle. Try analysing the song from 0:28 and see what you come up with. Cheers
    Thanks a lot, you've been very helpful. I'll analyse it when I get home tonight and see how I get on. Will be back with my findings ASAP.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    Cool. Gave you a wiz so your fret count matches your user name. Cheers
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • viz said:
    Cool. Gave you a wiz so your fret count matches your user name. Cheers
    Haha thanks, I like uniformity! (Probably why I find jazz a challenge!)
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  • kswilson89kswilson89 Frets: 222
    edited January 2019
    viz said:
    Cool. Gave you a wiz so your fret count matches your user name. Cheers
    So I've just got in from work and I've worked out the intro (before 0:28 - I'll start work on the rest tomorrow) as best I can:


    Gmaj6 - Abdim - Amin7 - Bbdim - G (1st inv.) - Cdim - Cmaj6 - F9 - G - D7 - A7 - G (1st inv.) - Cdim - A (1st inv.) - D7 - Gmaj6
        (I)                               (ii7)                                  (I)                                  (IV)  (bVII7)(I) (V7) (II7)  (I)                                       (II)                    (V7)       (I)


    Just wondering what the bVII7 is all about really? Any thoughts you have on this progression as a whole?
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited January 2019
    viz said:
    Cool. Gave you a wiz so your fret count matches your user name. Cheers
    So I've just got in from work and I've worked out the intro (before 0:28 - I'll start work on the rest tomorrow) as best I can:


    Gmaj6 - Abdim - Amin7 - Bbdim - G (1st inv.) - Cdim - Cmaj6 - F9 - G - D7 - A7 - G (1st inv.) - Cdim - A (1st inv.) - D7 - Gmaj6
        (I)                               (ii7)                                  (I)                                  (IV)  (bVII7)(I) (V7) (II7)  (I)                                       (II)                    (V7)       (I)


    Just wondering what the bVII7 is all about really? Any thoughts you have on this progression as a whole?
    Well, I think it’s just a few jazzy chords really! I quite like the way he has that slow II-V-I  (which as you rightly point out is a major II, so a secondary dominant), climbing chromatically up to the 5, resembling the initial climb.

    That F(alt) or whatever is quite unexpected but that’s ok. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • viz said:
    viz said:
    Cool. Gave you a wiz so your fret count matches your user name. Cheers
    So I've just got in from work and I've worked out the intro (before 0:28 - I'll start work on the rest tomorrow) as best I can:


    Gmaj6 - Abdim - Amin7 - Bbdim - G (1st inv.) - Cdim - Cmaj6 - F9 - G - D7 - A7 - G (1st inv.) - Cdim - A (1st inv.) - D7 - Gmaj6
        (I)                               (ii7)                                  (I)                                  (IV)  (bVII7)(I) (V7) (II7)  (I)                                       (II)                    (V7)       (I)


    Just wondering what the bVII7 is all about really? Any thoughts you have on this progression as a whole?
    Well, I think it’s just a few jazzy chords really! I quite like the way he has that slow II-V-I  (which is as you rightly point out a major II (so a secondary dominant), climbing chromatically up to the 5, resembling the initial climb.

    That F(alt) or whatever is quite odd but that’s ok. 
    Thanks for your input again, I'll see what I can come up with for the main tune ASAP.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    Don’t be afraid to focus on the principle chords, and treat some of the other notes as incidentals,  rather than chords in their own right.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    Roland said:
    Don’t be afraid to focus on the principle chords, and treat some of the other notes as incidentals,  rather than chords in their own right.
    Very true. I dun a jazz blues here, with passing notes rather than full diminished chords. Shoddy I know!

    https://youtu.be/cklYR21TcNE
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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