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A slightly different angle on Digital Versus Tubes

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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 3775
    Maynehead said:
    I still think "Modelers" should stop trying to model valve amps, and become Digital Amps in their own right. Only when that happens will there be real competition against the valve amps, otherwise valve amps will always be the holy grail.
    That's what I like about my Katana. It's not trying to be another real world amp, it just presents several very cool sounds of its own.
    They don't make a big thing of it, but the Katana amps are actually taken from the GT-100

    JC-120 - Clean
    TWEED - Crunch
    5150 - DRIVE Lead
    SLDN - Brown 

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  • Maynehead said:
    I still think "Modellers" should stop trying to model valve amps, and become Digital Amps in their own right. Only when that happens will there be real competition against the valve amps, otherwise valve amps will always be the holy grail.
    I've honestly never really cared whether a model sounds like the original amp or not...authenticity is irrelevant to me, I just use the model names as a clue to the general flavour of the block and tweak from there. If I can't get it to work, I just move on to the next one that sounds vaguely appropriate for what I'm aiming at.
    <space for hire>
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  • Maynehead said:
    I still think "Modellers" should stop trying to model valve amps, and become Digital Amps in their own right. Only when that happens will there be real competition against the valve amps, otherwise valve amps will always be the holy grail.
    I've honestly never really cared whether a model sounds like the original amp or not...authenticity is irrelevant to me, I just use the model names as a clue to the general flavour of the block and tweak from there. If I can't get it to work, I just move on to the next one that sounds vaguely appropriate for what I'm aiming at.

    Yep - part of why I love the Fractal Recto model is it sounds like the same family of the real amps but it's a bit better behaved in lower tunings.  The real amp is really quite something to play through as a half stack, but for recording I actually found it easier to use the Axe FX.
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  • MayneheadMaynehead Frets: 1782
    Maynehead said:
    I still think "Modellers" should stop trying to model valve amps, and become Digital Amps in their own right. Only when that happens will there be real competition against the valve amps, otherwise valve amps will always be the holy grail.
    I've honestly never really cared whether a model sounds like the original amp or not...authenticity is irrelevant to me, I just use the model names as a clue to the general flavour of the block and tweak from there. If I can't get it to work, I just move on to the next one that sounds vaguely appropriate for what I'm aiming at.
    I guess the pertinent question here is: If you disregard practicality/cost/feasibility etc., from a pure tone point of view, would you prefer a modelling amp with 10 amp models, or having the 10 actual amps that are being modelled at your disposal?
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  • Maynehead said:
    I still think "Modellers" should stop trying to model valve amps, and become Digital Amps in their own right. Only when that happens will there be real competition against the valve amps, otherwise valve amps will always be the holy grail.
    I've honestly never really cared whether a model sounds like the original amp or not...authenticity is irrelevant to me, I just use the model names as a clue to the general flavour of the block and tweak from there. If I can't get it to work, I just move on to the next one that sounds vaguely appropriate for what I'm aiming at.

    Yep - part of why I love the Fractal Recto model is it sounds like the same family of the real amps but it's a bit better behaved in lower tunings.  The real amp is really quite something to play through as a half stack, but for recording I actually found it easier to use the Axe FX.
    A lot of that is the cab too though, mesa 4x12s are fucking beasting! Only ever played through one once when sharing backline and theyre just tear your head off.
    ဈǝᴉʇsɐoʇǝsǝǝɥɔဪቌ
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  • Isn't this sort of already happening with the Thomas Blug amp?
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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 3775
    Maynehead said:
    Maynehead said:
    I still think "Modellers" should stop trying to model valve amps, and become Digital Amps in their own right. Only when that happens will there be real competition against the valve amps, otherwise valve amps will always be the holy grail.
    I've honestly never really cared whether a model sounds like the original amp or not...authenticity is irrelevant to me, I just use the model names as a clue to the general flavour of the block and tweak from there. If I can't get it to work, I just move on to the next one that sounds vaguely appropriate for what I'm aiming at.
    I guess the pertinent question here is: If you disregard practicality/cost/feasibility etc., from a pure tone point of view, would you prefer a modelling amp with 10 amp models, or having the 10 actual amps that are being modelled at your disposal?
    Bit of a hypothetical question but I'd still go modeller as tonally it's much more adaptable, My (hypothetical) pair of JCM800's with 4 4x12 cabs would sound rubbish in the Dog n Duck, where-as my modeller sounds great.  Unless you file that under 'practicality' ;)
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  • Maynehead said:
    Maynehead said:
    I still think "Modellers" should stop trying to model valve amps, and become Digital Amps in their own right. Only when that happens will there be real competition against the valve amps, otherwise valve amps will always be the holy grail.
    I've honestly never really cared whether a model sounds like the original amp or not...authenticity is irrelevant to me, I just use the model names as a clue to the general flavour of the block and tweak from there. If I can't get it to work, I just move on to the next one that sounds vaguely appropriate for what I'm aiming at.
    I guess the pertinent question here is: If you disregard practicality/cost/feasibility etc., from a pure tone point of view, would you prefer a modelling amp with 10 amp models, or having the 10 actual amps that are being modelled at your disposal?
    I'd rather have 10 useful amp models than the same 10 amps.

    In fact, I'd rather have three useful amp models and a couple of useful alternatives for each major effect type than 20 useful glass bottle amps.

    Practicality wins, for me. For live stuff, that means a good modeller, a tiny-but-mighty power amp and a lightweight cab. For recording...it means having them all at my fingertips whenever the urge takes me.

    I've already proven to myself that no audience member can tell that it's not a valve amp when I'm running through a real cab, and that with a great engineer mixing it, using a modeller like the Helix doesn't detract from the music.

    I'm keeping the JCA50H for sentimental reasons, but from this point forward...I'm all about the modelling.
    <space for hire>
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  • Maynehead said:
    I still think "Modellers" should stop trying to model valve amps, and become Digital Amps in their own right. Only when that happens will there be real competition against the valve amps, otherwise valve amps will always be the holy grail.
    I've honestly never really cared whether a model sounds like the original amp or not...authenticity is irrelevant to me, I just use the model names as a clue to the general flavour of the block and tweak from there. If I can't get it to work, I just move on to the next one that sounds vaguely appropriate for what I'm aiming at.

    Yep - part of why I love the Fractal Recto model is it sounds like the same family of the real amps but it's a bit better behaved in lower tunings.  The real amp is really quite something to play through as a half stack, but for recording I actually found it easier to use the Axe FX.
    A lot of that is the cab too though, mesa 4x12s are fucking beasting! Only ever played through one once when sharing backline and theyre just tear your head off.

    True, the oversize cab does have quite a different response compared to a normal sized 4x12.  I find the 2x12 is the sweet spot for my tastes.  Even then, it's just a huge sounding amp in general.
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  • MayneheadMaynehead Frets: 1782
    Maynehead said:
    Maynehead said:
    I still think "Modellers" should stop trying to model valve amps, and become Digital Amps in their own right. Only when that happens will there be real competition against the valve amps, otherwise valve amps will always be the holy grail.
    I've honestly never really cared whether a model sounds like the original amp or not...authenticity is irrelevant to me, I just use the model names as a clue to the general flavour of the block and tweak from there. If I can't get it to work, I just move on to the next one that sounds vaguely appropriate for what I'm aiming at.
    I guess the pertinent question here is: If you disregard practicality/cost/feasibility etc., from a pure tone point of view, would you prefer a modelling amp with 10 amp models, or having the 10 actual amps that are being modelled at your disposal?
    I'd rather have 10 useful amp models than the same 10 amps.

    In fact, I'd rather have three useful amp models and a couple of useful alternatives for each major effect type than 20 useful glass bottle amps.

    Practicality wins, for me. For live stuff, that means a good modeller, a tiny-but-mighty power amp and a lightweight cab. For recording...it means having them all at my fingertips whenever the urge takes me.

    I've already proven to myself that no audience member can tell that it's not a valve amp when I'm running through a real cab, and that with a great engineer mixing it, using a modeller like the Helix doesn't detract from the music.

    I'm keeping the JCA50H for sentimental reasons, but from this point forward...I'm all about the modelling.
    Maybe my question was slightly confusing.

    Basically what I’m asking is, is it the actual tone of the amps that draws people towards modellers, or is it all the other conveniences that they offer?

    If you were a millionaire rockstar recording an album at the studio, would you still use a Helix?
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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 3775
    If I were a millionaire rockstar I’d probably use proper amps for gigging and recording, just because I could, not really because I thought they sound better
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  • MayneheadMaynehead Frets: 1782
    John_A said:
    If I were a millionaire rockstar I’d probably use proper amps for gigging and recording, just because I could, not really because I thought they sound better

    So even with all the benefits that modellers have to offer, there's still something that draws you towards a valve amp...

    And therein lies the reason why digital may have won some good battles so far, but it will not (yet) win the war.

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  • ESBlondeESBlonde Frets: 3576
    Class D has been around a while with bass amps - and a good chunk of bass players will often say that a quality class D amp is a compromise - weight is so much better for convenience, but you lose some “heft” (what that actually is is a whole subject for debate).

    It’s true to say that for bass it’s often less of an issue because we usually DI for big venues and you end up with all the power stage coming from the PA - but the fact still remains that many feel the class D power stage definitely lacks something. 


    In the pro sound world there are also many exponents of the same bass 'heft' idea, and so old style heavy iron core transformerred power amps are considered best for bass and sub cab reproduction. The modern powered lightweight cabs mean you can have more power for your money, but 'heft' is still 'heft'. Of course big artists specify the latest high tech rider friendly line array, but many providers would rather have the bottom end the old fashioned way.
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  • Maynehead said:
    Maybe my question was slightly confusing.

    Basically what I’m asking is, is it the actual tone of the amps that draws people towards modellers, or is it all the other conveniences that they offer?

    If you were a millionaire rockstar recording an album at the studio, would you still use a Helix?
    I don't know if he's a millionaire but that's what Chris Robertson from Black Stone Cherry did with their last album. I saw an interview with him - he said they were struggling to get a tone and he thought he'd just try the Helix and he got a tone straight away and that's what they used for the whole thing.

    The more I think about modelling, the more confused I get. What is the purpose of modelling? Is it to re-create the sound you hear as a punter out of a PA? Or is it to re-create the sound you get out of a guitar amp. When people complain that modelling doesn't sound like a real amp, they get told "Ah - but it's not supposed to...it's supposed to sound like a recorded tone or a tone out of a PA".

    But that's not right is it...the sound we all love, and the only sound people used to hear before the invent of modern PA equipment, is the sound out of a guitar amp...surely that's what everyone wants to hear at the end of the day? If the FoH PA sounded exactly like a classic Marshall into a 4x12, the audience isn't going to go "hang on...that's not quite compressed enough and lacking in detail". OK, I'm being deliberately facetious but you get the idea.

    I was watching a comparison of various FRFR speakers today and they were commenting on how some of them were better because they sounded more like 'real amps'...but I thought hang on...I thought they weren't trying to be real amps.

    I guess I'm saying modellers are great at sounding like a guitar amp through a PA...which is probably why a lot of pros are totally happy to use modelling tech while us amateurs are still a bit hesitant. They are focused on delivering a 'PA' sound to punters and a recorded tone, whereas most of us still mostly experience the amp in the room tone.

    Dunno. Just a thought.



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  • ESBlondeESBlonde Frets: 3576
    After a year or so in semi retirement I dragged my old plexi amp out to a gig on Friday. Bear in mind that in the meantime I've been using a well regarded valve combo. 
    For the time I was on stage I was grinning like a Cheshire cat, that sound was just gorgeous. Someone videod the gig and I'm actually dancing! Those that know me can attest that fat 60 year old arthritic guitarists just don't do that. Even the drummers wife said i looked like I was really enjoying myself.
    The cab might have to go, two x 12" JBLs in the JBL cab is harder to lift than I remember. 
     For a couple of weeks I'd been toying with the idea of a line 6 pedalboard or maybe even the whole digital setup. Not now, now I remember what a GOOD valve amp is there is no way I'm taking that step anytime soon. If you haven't played through a good valve amp do yourself a favour.
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  • TTBZTTBZ Frets: 2873
    edited February 2019
    I think something like the Suhr PT15 is the way forwards, or indeed the Reactive Load IR/Ox Box/Waza Expander to "digitally model the back end" as they say. I love my valve amp and real pedals, but want digital flexibility and most importantly the ability to run it silently/through headphones.

    I keep thinking about getting a Helix but it just seems like such a boring safe option. Running a real amp into a load and IR appeals much more to me for some reason, but it could just be the whole "t00bz is better" myth - I change my mind about it daily. We probably just cling onto valves as it's what we've always known but it's probably time to join digital like literally every other industry and product we own! Then again I've also never had a modeller sound or feel as good as a valve amp.
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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 3775
    Maynehead said:
    John_A said:
    If I were a millionaire rockstar I’d probably use proper amps for gigging and recording, just because I could, not really because I thought they sound better

    So even with all the benefits that modellers have to offer, there's still something that draws you towards a valve amp...

    And therein lies the reason why digital may have won some good battles so far, but it will not (yet) win the war.

    The only ‘draw’ is as a millionaire rock star I could amass a load of gear on endorsements and pay someone to lug it about and set it up, as a millionaire non rockstar I’d stick with my Helix:)
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  • Maynehead said:

    Maybe my question was slightly confusing.

    Basically what I’m asking is, is it the actual tone of the amps that draws people towards modellers, or is it all the other conveniences that they offer?

    If you were a millionaire rockstar recording an album at the studio, would you still use a Helix?
    OK - largely, it's the other conveniences.

    However, if I were a rock star recording an album at the studio, I'd probably get my reference tone with a Helix and get the engineer to re-amp through his choice of amps to try to better it. Why? Because I can get the tone I'm after much more quickly with the Helix, and that would give the engineer a good starting point without me farting around wasting time and money.

    If I was touring...there's no way in hell I'd be shipping massive, unreliable, heavy amps all over the place. I'd just have a Helix (and possibly a spare) with all my presets on, a couple of my current squeeze of power amp and have a known-quantity cab on the rider. Why waste all that money when nobody in the audience will a) tell the difference, or b) care?

    I don't know if he's a millionaire but that's what Chris Robertson from Black Stone Cherry did with their last album. I saw an interview with him - he said they were struggling to get a tone and he thought he'd just try the Helix and he got a tone straight away and that's what they used for the whole thing.

    The more I think about modelling, the more confused I get. What is the purpose of modelling? Is it to re-create the sound you hear as a punter out of a PA? Or is it to re-create the sound you get out of a guitar amp. When people complain that modelling doesn't sound like a real amp, they get told "Ah - but it's not supposed to...it's supposed to sound like a recorded tone or a tone out of a PA".

    You're confused because you seem to be trying to make it "this thing" or "that thing". Digital modelling can be used in any number of ways. I, for example, use the Helix live without any cab modelling, into a power amp, into a real cab. I've never met anyone who could definitively tell me whether it was a modeller or a valve amp at gig volume.

    However, when I'm recording, I use it with my favourite cab impulses, and after a bit of massaging from a class engineer, I'd be stunned if anyone could tell the difference.

    On top of all that, I can make signal paths that would be all-but-impossible on anything but an insane budget with my Helix. Modellers can do waaaaaay more than traditional pedalboard-and-amp rigs can reach in their wildest dreams. When you get as far as the AxeFX II or Helix, the limits are more likely to be your imagination than the unit itself.

    The fact is that while folk try to put all modellers into a single basket with a single "purpose", they actually have many different use cases....whereas valve amps have only one (or maybe two at a push if you run them into a reactive load).

    Ultimately, they're just a hell of a lot more useful to me than any amp (or collection of amps) has ever been.
    <space for hire>
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  • Paul_CPaul_C Frets: 7670
    Class D has been around a while with bass amps - and a good chunk of bass players will often say that a quality class D amp is a compromise - weight is so much better for convenience, but you lose some “heft” (what that actually is is a whole subject for debate).

    It’s true to say that for bass it’s often less of an issue because we usually DI for big venues and you end up with all the power stage coming from the PA - but the fact still remains that many feel the class D power stage definitely lacks something. 



    Odd - I may not be much of a sample size, but my experience with Class D has always been positive.

    I started with a Markbass Little Mark II into various cabs, continued with a Markbass 3x10 combo that I gigged in a 10pc band and was magnificent and finished with a TC Electronic BG250 which was fine for what I was using it for and never felt like it was lacking anything.

    I played through a Marshall VBA400 a couple of times when I had the Markbass combo and it didn't make me think "I must have one of these".
    "I'll probably be in the bins at Newport Pagnell services."  fretmeister
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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
    tFB Trader
    TTBZ said:
    I think something like the Suhr PT15 is the way forwards, or indeed the Reactive Load IR/Ox Box/Waza Expander to "digitally model the back end" as they say. I love my valve amp and real pedals, but want digital flexibility and most importantly the ability to run it silently/through headphones.


    For live use I found this to be the worst of all worlds.

    Get an amp and stick a mic on it or get a modeller and stick it into the pa or a cab.

    Amps into loads with impulses and other bits is too complicated, requires too many boxes, too much time to set up and just ends up wasting your time debugging problems. Generally it doesn't sound better either, or at least didn't in my case.

    It's so much easier to do things like switch your amp on unloaded and blow it up as well.
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