Edit: M-audio vs Presonus vs Steinberg.

What's Hot
2

Comments

  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
    edited February 2019
    Digital recording is based on a principle called the Nyquist Theorem, which says that to perfectly capture and replay a signal, you need to sample at at least twice the frequency of the signal. Or, to put it the other way round, if you sample at X cycles per second, you can capture audio at up to X/2 cycles per second. (It's more complicated in the real world but this is a description of an idealised system.)

    So if you sample at 48kHz, you'll capture audio up to 24kHz. Which is some way above the upper limit of human hearing. If you sample at 96kHz, you can capture audio at up to 48kHz -- that is, if your microphones have any meaningful level of sensitivity at that frequency, which most don't. And so on.

    Some instruments such as cymbals and brass instruments produce harmonics well above 20kHz, so there's an argument that you should faithfully capture these even if they can't be heard directly. There is also an argument that high sample rates can represent fast transients more faithfully than base sample rates, and that this is audible, but again that's not really an issue with electric guitar, and if it exists at all, it's an incredibly subtle difference.



    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • tekbowtekbow Frets: 1686
    @Stuckfast and @fretwired, thanks for taking the time to explain, it's certainly helped decode a lot of the specs WRT to performance.

    A layman, which I am, would typically be inclined to say "11's one louder, innit?", so knowing the relevance of the figures helps a lot.

    Im pretty much there. Having one last look at whether a USB-C, to USB-A connector actually performs at USB 3 levels, or is no faster than 2.0.

    This isn't WRT the speed or latency or bandwidth, just that it seems to be the way external connectivity is going.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
    USB C to USB A should operate at USB 3 bandwidth if the connected device supports that. But note that bandwidth is not the same thing as latency. USB 3 bandwidth is much higher than under USB 2, which is very noticeable if for instance you want to back up to an USB hard drive. The latency, however, is no different.

    In crude terms, USB 3 can move more data around than USB 2, but the time taken for any individual piece of data to make the journey is the same.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    tekbow said:
    @Stuckfast and @fretwired, thanks for taking the time to explain, it's certainly helped decode a lot of the specs WRT to performance.

    A layman, which I am, would typically be inclined to say "11's one louder, innit?", so knowing the relevance of the figures helps a lot.

    Im pretty much there. Having one last look at whether a USB-C, to USB-A connector actually performs at USB 3 levels, or is no faster than 2.0.

    This isn't WRT the speed or latency or bandwidth, just that it seems to be the way external connectivity is going.
    As @Stuckfast says the latency between USB 2 and USB 3 is the same. On my PC the USB 3 ports are connected to external disk drives - data moves much faster.

    I do some sound design which is why I occasionally use 192 khz - it helps when I slow sounds down and manipulate them. If you're recording guitar-based music at home then 44.1kHz is fine.


    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • USB2 will be fine for you. 192Khz will be absolute overkill. Drivers really are the most important thing in my experience. 

    You seem to have narrowed it down to Steinberg UR44 and Audient ID22. The Audient is a little "better" in terms of conversion but I'd give the UR44 the win in terms of the drivers. The last update of the Audient drivers really didn't do much for the performance and I've found the Steinberg/Yamaha drivers to be good across the range. 

    Zoom UAC might well have the best driver performance of the sub-£200 USB audio interfaces that I've tried. 



    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • tekbowtekbow Frets: 1686
    @Heartfeltdawn, looks like it'll be the UR44. I just realised that, whilst the ID22 is expandable, it literally only has the XLR ins. no separate line ins.

    I was intending to run the load box out from the Reload into an XLR, and take a signal from the line level slave out of my amp into a stereo delay, then into 2 line ins on the interface, then cab them via wall of sound.

    But the ID22 doesn't have the separate standalone line ins I thought they had.

    So unless I can make about 300 quid extra materialise for the ID44, it'll be the UR44.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • @tekbow should be fine for you. I've owned the UR22, tried the UR44, and own the UR12 right now on my laptop rig. Very happy with all of them. 



    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • Probably a totally numpty question that came to mind reading this about sample rates etc. I record 48k 96k occasionally.

    Does it not make a difference to how say a complex reverb plugin  is applied to the track one would think. 


    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
    Not a numpty question at all. Quite a few processing plug-ins up-sample internally if it helps them achieve better quality, so they'll convert a 48k input to 96kHz for processing, then back down again at the output.

    Not sure you'd notice a huge difference with reverb -- again, there's rarely much going on in the very high frequencies in reverberation. Frequencies above 20kHz are very quickly absorbed by passage through the air, so you'd only really pick them up if you get close to the source and mic the direct sound.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • tekbowtekbow Frets: 1686
    Just out of interest... has anyone known of someone using a UR44 with a Torpedo Reload?

    Due diligence and all that, like with the drivers, but the only mentions of them interacting are on the Steinberg Forum, and one other recording forum, in German. Having run it through Google translate, it seems the combination were not a success.

    At this point I'm going to sleep on the decision, because I just dunno anymore.

    I do know audient work with two notes and their interfaces plus Two Notes hardware are generally a successful and hassle free match.

    Which leaves me the ID44 in terms of ins and outs I want, or revisiting the Presonus stuff which I don't want to do because half the stuff I read says they rock and the other half says the drivers aren't great.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • wave100wave100 Frets: 150
    tekbow said:
    Just out of interest... has anyone known of someone using a UR44 with a Torpedo Reload?

    Due diligence and all that, like with the drivers, but the only mentions of them interacting are on the Steinberg Forum, and one other recording forum, in German. Having run it through Google translate, it seems the combination were not a success.

    At this point I'm going to sleep on the decision, because I just dunno anymore.

    I do know audient work with two notes and their interfaces plus Two Notes hardware are generally a successful and hassle free match.

    Which leaves me the ID44 in terms of ins and outs I want, or revisiting the Presonus stuff which I don't want to do because half the stuff I read says they rock and the other half says the drivers aren't great.
    Does the Torpedo Reload not just provide a line level output in which case any interface that works will do the trick?
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • tekbowtekbow Frets: 1686
    wave100 said:
    tekbow said:
    Just out of interest... has anyone known of someone using a UR44 with a Torpedo Reload?

    Due diligence and all that, like with the drivers, but the only mentions of them interacting are on the Steinberg Forum, and one other recording forum, in German. Having run it through Google translate, it seems the combination were not a success.

    At this point I'm going to sleep on the decision, because I just dunno anymore.

    I do know audient work with two notes and their interfaces plus Two Notes hardware are generally a successful and hassle free match.

    Which leaves me the ID44 in terms of ins and outs I want, or revisiting the Presonus stuff which I don't want to do because half the stuff I read says they rock and the other half says the drivers aren't great.
    Does the Torpedo Reload not just provide a line level output in which case any interface that works will do the trick?


    yep it does, it has a HiZ in for the guitar output to the interface from a balanced line level XLR, into the XLR on the front of the interface. You then run a cable back via a line level TRS output on the back of the interface (i guess one of the secondary pair of line level outputs) back into the Reload which has a balanced TRS input, then a standard instrument level output on the back of the Reload is patched to the input of the amp.

    the German guy seemed to have issues getting anything to output at all from the interface. He eventually managed to but then it stopped working again the next day.

    Now, I'd have thought it would have been a matter of routing the input to the interface for direct monitoring (via one of the secondary line outs...?) and setting for record and monitor. Not that i know how this works on a practical level. But anyway, this is what he claims he did, and he still had issues.

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 8481
    tekbow said:
    I just realised that, whilst the ID22 is expandable, it literally only has the XLR ins. no separate line ins. 
    It's got 2 line ins, in the form of the two "return" jack sockets on the back - and is one of the few interfaces where you can totally bypass the mic preamps, so there's no unnecessary colouration. The XLR sockets also double as jack inputs, so you can use the mic preamp gain if you need to. Finally, channel 2 also has a DI input.

    That said, low latency performance isn't great so @Heartfeltdawn is correct about the driver situation. That was a little disappointing for me, coming from RME's drivers.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    edited February 2019
    tekbow said:
    Just out of interest... has anyone known of someone using a UR44 with a Torpedo Reload?


    Edit. You're talking about the hardware box. I use the VST plugin. I can't see why it won't work.

    Order a UR44, try and if it doesn't work return it.

    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • tekbowtekbow Frets: 1686
    Cirrus said:
    tekbow said:
    I just realised that, whilst the ID22 is expandable, it literally only has the XLR ins. no separate line ins. 
    It's got 2 line ins, in the form of the two "return" jack sockets on the back - and is one of the few interfaces where you can totally bypass the mic preamps, so there's no unnecessary colouration. The XLR sockets also double as jack inputs, so you can use the mic preamp gain if you need to. Finally, channel 2 also has a DI input.

    That said, low latency performance isn't great so @Heartfeltdawn is correct about the driver situation. That was a little disappointing for me, coming from RME's drivers.


    Cirrus, i thought the return jacks couldn't be used simultaneously with the XLR's. As you say, it bypasses the MIC preamps. So I couldn't have both XLR's occupied with, for example, the Reload's DI and Loadbox  XLR outs run into the XLR's in the back of the ID22, whilst simultaneously having a stereo line level signal run from the amps slave out going into the "Return" jack sockets, could I?

    There's a direct monitoring function isn't there? with basically zero latency? So i could send the Dry DI signal from the reload HiZ input into the ID22 and straight out one of the line level outs, back to the Reload re-amp function. That means i can hear my actual amp whilst recording a dry signal for reamping. I think? you can record on and direct monitor the same track right?

    I mean, the re-amping thing might not be something i do very often anyway but if i want to do it, i'd like to know its a piece of equipment that plays nice with the Reload. 

    It's the capability to have multiple sources running into the ID22 simultaneously that i'd really like to have.

    But, you know, recording newb, so my expectations of what these units can do, may not be in line with what these units can actually do.

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • tekbowtekbow Frets: 1686
    Fretwired said:
    tekbow said:
    Just out of interest... has anyone known of someone using a UR44 with a Torpedo Reload?


    Edit. You're talking about the hardware box. I use the VST plugin. I can't see why it won't work.

    Order a UR44, try and if it doesn't work return it.


    You mean Wall of Sound?

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    tekbow said:
    Fretwired said:
    tekbow said:
    Just out of interest... has anyone known of someone using a UR44 with a Torpedo Reload?


    Edit. You're talking about the hardware box. I use the VST plugin. I can't see why it won't work.

    Order a UR44, try and if it doesn't work return it.


    You mean Wall of Sound?

    Yes - I use Torpedo Wall of Sound.

    Just watched a video of the Torpedo Reload and yes it will work. I assume you want to use an amp head to record into your DAW.

    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • tekbowtekbow Frets: 1686
    Fretwired said:
    tekbow said:
    Fretwired said:
    tekbow said:
    Just out of interest... has anyone known of someone using a UR44 with a Torpedo Reload?


    Edit. You're talking about the hardware box. I use the VST plugin. I can't see why it won't work.

    Order a UR44, try and if it doesn't work return it.


    You mean Wall of Sound?

    Yes - I use Torpedo Wall of Sound.

    Just watched a video of the Torpedo Reload and yes it will work. I assume you want to use an amp head to record into your DAW.


    Yes, i want to record my amp direct with the Torpedo Reload plugged between amp and cab, then use WOS to Cab and Mic  up the dry signal(s).

    A vid of the Torpedo Reload in use with the UR44? Can you link me? the German thread i found was having difficulty using the re-amp feature with the UR44 and Torpedo Reload combo

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    edited February 2019
    tekbow said:


    Yes, i want to record my amp direct with the Torpedo Reload plugged between amp and cab, then use WOS to Cab and Mic  up the dry signal(s).

    A vid of the Torpedo Reload in use with the UR44? Can you link me? the German thread i found was having difficulty using the re-amp feature with the UR44 and Torpedo Reload combo

    The vid wasn't using a UR44. The guy showed how you hook the thing up to an interface. I don't get the problem from a hardware point of view. The Torpedo Reload goes into input one and the mic'd cab into input two or three depending on what your using with your mic.

    Open your DAW, fire up two seperate mono audio channels, route them to the inputs, arm, and record.

    Make sure you have the right cables.



    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • tekbowtekbow Frets: 1686
    Fretwired said:
    tekbow said:


    Yes, i want to record my amp direct with the Torpedo Reload plugged between amp and cab, then use WOS to Cab and Mic  up the dry signal(s).

    A vid of the Torpedo Reload in use with the UR44? Can you link me? the German thread i found was having difficulty using the re-amp feature with the UR44 and Torpedo Reload combo

    The vid wasn't using a UR44. The guy showed how you hook the thing up to an interface. I don't get the problem from a hardware point of view. The Torpedo Reload goes into input one and the mic'd cab into input two or three depending on what your using with your mic.

    Open your DAW, fire up two seperate mono audio channels, route them to the inputs, arm, and record.


    The hook up instructions are in the manual, I've familiarise myself with em. I don't get the problem either, it should have worked for the guy whose issues I mentioned, but it didn't. I don't really like buying stuff and sending it back, anytime I've done that with a big purchase, it's been questioned and was a bunch of hassle.

    So I'm trying to buy something that's been verified as playing nice with the Reload.

    No biggie, as I said, I'm going to put this interface purchase aside for now and revisit it in a week or so.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
Sign In or Register to comment.