Avalon / Lowden Comparison

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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11789
    brucegill said:
    brucegill said:
    Not one of us actually knows what happened between GL and the others at (now) Avalon. Not one of us actually knows the financial situation Avalon are, or are not in at this moment. (Id assume they’re trading under another name now). Speculation and hearsay can be a little damaging to be honest. 

    I’m sure your order is absolutely fine @Ted. ;;Having dealt with Steve at Avalon, he’s an absolute gent and great to deal with. Their guitars are fantastic too, so look forward to it and enjoy!

    I don’t think Avalons are the same as Lowden, and not overly comparable (especial when comparing different sizes/shapes and wood combinations), they’re just from a common background and both make fantastic instruments  I’d happily own both a lowden and an Avalon if/when finances/needs allow. Personally I find Lowdens body shapes better to my eye, just a nicer balance and from a better eye for design. Looking inside at the bracing the Lowdens have had a little more thought behind them too. It is a shame they’re not made by the guys who did make them for all those years, but hopefully they are making some money and still doing what they love, but with their name on the headstock. 
    I heard that the Avalon guys agreed to let GL take the brand name in 2004, although there was no legal reason that they had to do it.

    AFAIK there was unhappiness for quite a while during the time the Avalon guys built all the Lowdens, because although GL was not involved with manufacture, the luthiers had to stick to his original designs, and could not add anything they thought would enhance them. Hence why the Lowden-type guitars they now make have normal pin bridges. Also Avalon now make quite a few non-Lowden style guitars

    I'm very sceptical that Lowden bracing would be better than Avalon (rather than just different), especially since Avalon is now running a small-scale workshop


    I’m sure it was a tricky situation, but if GL designed them, and the luthiers built them to his design, with his name in them, I don’t see why he wouldn’t want them to stick to his design and also take his name and his designs with him if there was a falling out. Sounds, from what you’ve just said, like it needed to happen for both parties to be happy. 

    The Avalon I had for a short period (long story) was absolutely stunning. I’d say I’m 99% sure my next guitar will be an Avalon. So I’m not meaning to sound like I’m saying one is better than the other, I’d be happy with either! Quite fancy a nylon string jobby, but not quite sure what they’ll sound like. I did try a Americana (the middle one) and it was nice, but the example I tried had a big old neck and I think it had sat in a case, unplayed for most of its life, so didn’t wow me like the others I’ve tried. 

    Id also say that i can see a very slight burn from power tools or cnc on one or two braces inside my F35. I’m sure you won’t find that on an Avalon! 

    You dont happen to have have one of the nylon stringed versions @ToneControl? Be interested to hear you take on them if you do. 


    I did have a nylon one. I wanted to try a radiused fingerboard
    The guys told me it was built for stage use (i.e. stiffer braced than a normal classical), to avoid stage feedback, and I underestimated the effect this would have on acoustic volume, which was not ideal for me, since I rarely amplify guitars. Nevertheless the reason I sold it on was because I found that I didn't like playing nylon strings on a narrower fingerboard for classical-style pieces.
    It was very well constructed, I would have no hesitation in buying one with a radiused 2 inch wide fingerboard, with normal, non-stage light fan bracing
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  • brucegillbrucegill Frets: 710
    Thanks for that! Probably not right for me then.

    If they ran a shorter scale length on the small bodied steal strings they do, I’d go that way, but pretty sure they’re 650mm like the rest of their models. 
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  • TedTed Frets: 126
    What put me off a Lowden is that they are considerably more expensive than Avalons. Also Lowden seemed to be very good at marketing(the Ed Sheeran connection), this aspect always puts me off a product because I think how much am I not paying for the actual construction rather than the brand support apparatus.

    Regarding Steve at Avalon I agree is very helpful and seems very straight. My concern was that I believe that Avalon have once before entered administration(post the Lowden split) but having dealt recently with Steve I can't believe he would do a Trump style fraud on his customers.
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11789
    Ted said:
    What put me off a Lowden is that they are considerably more expensive than Avalons. Also Lowden seemed to be very good at marketing(the Ed Sheeran connection), this aspect always puts me off a product because I think how much am I not paying for the actual construction rather than the brand support apparatus.

    Regarding Steve at Avalon I agree is very helpful and seems very straight. My concern was that I believe that Avalon have once before entered administration(post the Lowden split) but having dealt recently with Steve I can't believe he would do a Trump style fraud on his customers.

    Lowden's marketing has been very effective since the split

    Ironically, back in the 80s GL ran into lots of problems with the business side of things, and AFAIK basically retreated to France in 1989 leaving the Lowden guitar co (i.e. Avalon) to build the brand

    However, in the 2000s, Avalon experimented with offshore-built "Lite" ranges for a short time, which may have undermined their Irish branding temporarily, i.e. the Silver series. 



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  • brucegillbrucegill Frets: 710
    Ted said:
    What put me off a Lowden is that they are considerably more expensive than Avalons. Also Lowden seemed to be very good at marketing(the Ed Sheeran connection), this aspect always puts me off a product because I think how much am I not paying for the actual construction rather than the brand support apparatus.

    Regarding Steve at Avalon I agree is very helpful and seems very straight. My concern was that I believe that Avalon have once before entered administration(post the Lowden split) but having dealt recently with Steve I can't believe he would do a Trump style fraud on his customers.
    The Sheeran thing did put me off a bit, but then that’s because I’m not a Sheeran fan. I’m sure Sheeran just stuck a big chunk of cash their way! When you look at it, it’s a nice opportunity for both party’s and the end product are pretty cheep (the Sheeran range) and made in IRELAND. That’s good for us! 

    I can see that the 50 series are damn expensive, but the normal range aren’t that far off Avalon’s prices on their website. And considering the price of a Fender custom shop at £3500, i don’t see them as overly expensive for something made in the western world and not of bolt on neck type design. 

    Lowden are hardly like a Martin or Taylor corporation. 
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  • TedTed Frets: 126
    I don't disagree with you generally but I thought Lowden's were made in NI ie The UK. If they were'nt made in this country that would make me less likely to buy them. Avalons are made in Belfast
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  • brucegillbrucegill Frets: 710
    Ted said:
    I don't disagree with you generally but I thought Lowden's were made in NI ie The UK. If they were'nt made in this country that would make me less likely to buy them. Avalons are made in Belfast
    Sorry, yes, made in Northern Ireland! 
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  • th2017th2017 Frets: 45
    In terms of financials I'll just add a few facts,  I quickly checked them.  Company number listed on the website is a fairly new company, with a the owner of a successful chain of restaurants/gastropubs in NI listed, I presume there has been outside investment/ sale of the company (I have no connection or affiliation to any party).
    I'm still looking at one and would see this as a positive, and certainly wouldn't hesitate to buy from them.  Have spoken with steve and seems a very genuine guy as well.  There is an active company 100%
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  • brucegillbrucegill Frets: 710
    This is from another US forum, posted by a dealer/shop who stock Avalon. Posted this year but I believe it was copied from a post made late last year:


    The Avalon Guitar Co. is still in fine shape. See my post from last Fall, copied and pasted below. Misleading headlines like the recent 'Avalon Custom Lutherie is facing liquidation again' are how misinformation and harmful rumors get started and spread! 

    Avalon has been through some challenges over the years, but has righted the ship! Several of the finest luthiers on earth are still doing their thing at the Newtownards NI shop, the 'Spiritual Home of Irish Guitar Building'! 

    PM me for details.
    -Bill-

    "I have been in touch with Steve at Avalon and had an extensive email exchange with him the week before last, before I left on an overseas trip. On Fri Sept 28, the company came out of liquidation with a new investor, and hired back several key luthiers and was set to begin building again on Oct 1. I will be talking with Steve within the next few days, now that I am back. This new investor is real and it looks as though the company is in a better position than it has been for at least a few years. 

    True, what has been said in this thread, that a more expansive dealer network would be in order. Easier said than done, that: capacity to build the number of guitars needed to support such a network is challenging to say the least. Avalon has not invested in "productivity technology" such as CNC equipment, using its skilled work force to do the basic components, essentially by hand. There's a lot to be said for CNC, but by choosing to invest in quality luthiers with long experience, the outcome is a guitar that has a soul that one with more machine built content oftentimes seems to lack. "Soul" is difficult to measure, but anyone who has played an Avalon, and who has a better vocabulary than I do, should be able to describe it to you!
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11789
    I've just been looking at photos of some of the custom-made Avalons:
    Fanned frets, sound ports, you name it. Very nice.
    and English bog oak, that's 5000 years old I think

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  • brucegillbrucegill Frets: 710
    I've just been looking at photos of some of the custom-made Avalons:
    Fanned frets, sound ports, you name it. Very nice.
    and English bog oak, that's 5000 years old I think

    They sound nice. Where was that? 

    Ive got Bog Oak on my Lowden. Looks stunning and love the fact it’s so old, they carbon dated it to 5300 years old. Crazy! It’s wasn’t something I’d gone to look at either, but it was the one that spoke to me so to speak, so the back story was something I found out after the purchase. First time I’ve not had a normal combination of wood (RW/spruce or hog/spruce), and it’s nice to not have an expected tone in my mind when I’m playing it if that makes sense. 
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11789
    brucegill said:
    I've just been looking at photos of some of the custom-made Avalons:
    Fanned frets, sound ports, you name it. Very nice.
    and English bog oak, that's 5000 years old I think

    They sound nice. Where was that? 

    Ive got Bog Oak on my Lowden. Looks stunning and love the fact it’s so old, they carbon dated it to 5300 years old. Crazy! It’s wasn’t something I’d gone to look at either, but it was the one that spoke to me so to speak, so the back story was something I found out after the purchase. First time I’ve not had a normal combination of wood (RW/spruce or hog/spruce), and it’s nice to not have an expected tone in my mind when I’m playing it if that makes sense. 
    call or email Avalon, Steve emailed them to me
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  • soundoutsoundout Frets: 0
    It’s always hard to comment on the intangible qualities any high end acoustic guitars as they can be so individual in sound. So an Avalon vs Lowden comparison of the actual sound of the guitars is almost pointless. So we need to look at these prestigious small companies from a business point of view.

    As a pro performer who has owned both brands, and also as an ex-colleague in a business which sold high-end guitars, I have taken an interest in both of these brands right from the start. (I am old, lol). Both of these small companies have made business mistakes over the years, but my view is that Lowden deserve their relative superiority purely on the consistency and excellence of their instruments.. Avalon have had more ‘ups and downs’ regarding quality, consistency and design. Currently their instruments are excellent and consistent.

    It is a matter of opinion whether Avalon have ever managed to improve on the original Lowden designs, which they legally inherited and made under the name ‘Legacy Series’. There is no doubt that the real design genius and innovation of both brands is down to George Lowden himself. In recent years I have owned, coincidentally, first an Avalon and now a Lowden in the exact same design and materials. The Lowden cost more and it is clearly better to my ears. I have kept it but sold the Avalon. But we all have different ears and playing styles!
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  • soundoutsoundout Frets: 0
    It’s always hard to comment on the intangible qualities any high end acoustic guitars as they can be so individual in sound. So an Avalon vs Lowden comparison of the actual sound of the guitars is almost pointless. So we need to look at these prestigious small companies from a business point of view.

    As a pro performer who has owned both brands, and also as an ex-colleague in a business which sold high-end guitars, I have taken an interest in both of these brands right from the start. (I am old, lol). Both of these small companies have made business mistakes over the years, but my view is that Lowden deserve their relative superiority purely on the consistency and excellence of their instruments.. Avalon have had more ‘ups and downs’ regarding quality, consistency and design. Currently their instruments are excellent and consistent.

    It is a matter of opinion whether Avalon have ever managed to improve on the original Lowden designs, which they legally inherited and made under the name ‘Legacy Series’. There is no doubt that the real design genius and innovation of both brands is down to George Lowden himself. In recent years I have owned, coincidentally, first an Avalon and now a Lowden in the exact same design and materials. The Lowden cost more and it is clearly better to my ears. I have kept it but sold the Avalon. But we all have different ears and playing styles!
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