Songwriting processes

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hotpickupshotpickups Frets: 1813
edited May 2019 in Theory

Wonder if you guys can advise me. I’m having a go at songwriting and as I always ignored any kind of theory in my younger years I am now paying the price for that decision. So when I write guitar solos for a song, I’ve always used the Blues scale (caged box system), major and minor positions etc. This has always worked for me when there’s already been a track for me to play over I.e. melody and mood/sound etc. However, I’m starting from scratch, coming up with the chord progression etc. 

So my question is when writing do you just play around with the major scale to come up with a melody etc. Maybe embellish the chords later with nicer chord extensions etc. I suppose one has to be aware of Modes -  ol’ god I’ve said that word. Just wish I can fully use and understand them

What would your usual processes be in songwriting etc.

Link to my trading feedback:  http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/59452/
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Comments

  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 8481
    Usually I play around with chords, and try to throw in something unusual so there's something harmonically interesting, then try to sing over that and feel a melody out that is supported by what I'm doing.

    Rhythm plays a big part in it too. The groove you're working with matters.
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  • JAYJOJAYJO Frets: 1526

    Steal.
    Take a song you like.
    Use that progression
    Speed it up
    Slow it down.
    change the rhythm 
    mutter any old codswallop, just let it out.
    record
    rpt.
    start again. 
    rpt


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  • hotpickupshotpickups Frets: 1813
    JAYJO said:

    Steal.
    Take a song you like.
    Use that progression
    Speed it up
    Slow it down.
    change the rhythm 
    mutter any old codswallop, just let it out.
    record
    rpt.
    start again. 
    rpt


    LOL Well I can certainly do that :) Thanks
    Link to my trading feedback:  http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/59452/
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  • JAYJOJAYJO Frets: 1526
    Ive just had a listen to Roses in the hospital by manic street preachers, ive never heard it before.Funny thing is i can hear  David Bowie sound and vision n there somewhere. Probably just me .. Whats going on? lol  steal steal orange peel.
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  • hotpickupshotpickups Frets: 1813
    JAYJO said:
    Ive just had a listen to Roses in the hospital by manic street preachers, ive never heard it before.Funny thing is i can hear  David Bowie sound and vision n there somewhere. Probably just me .. Whats going on? lol  steal steal orange peel.
    If it makes me a million I’ll do it :). I won’t be performing it though as I’m too friggin old to sell anything now. I’ll enlist a very vivacious youngster to front it of course 
    Link to my trading feedback:  http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/59452/
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    Usually have a chorus made up of chords and build from there. Or a main riff. I don't think too much about theory when writing, I just go with whatever suits the song and what sounds good.
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  • hotpickupshotpickups Frets: 1813
    Usually have a chorus made up of chords and build from there. Or a main riff. I don't think too much about theory when writing, I just go with whatever suits the song and what sounds good.
    Usually have a chorus made up of chords and build from there. Or a main riff. I don't think too much about theory when writing, I just go with whatever suits the song and what sounds good.
    Ahh that’s called talent though. You can’t learn that ;)
    Link to my trading feedback:  http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/59452/
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    Nah no talent here mate, just experience!!

    I also think about the arrangement of songs alot too, like section by section, as a guitar tutor I'm forever learning and teaching songs so I get used to how they're structured. Take one of your favourite songs and look at how its laid out, what does it start with, how many choruses are there and where's the main hook, etc.
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  • hotpickupshotpickups Frets: 1813
    Nah no talent here mate, just experience!!

    I also think about the arrangement of songs alot too, like section by section, as a guitar tutor I'm forever learning and teaching songs so I get used to how they're structured. Take one of your favourite songs and look at how its laid out, what does it start with, how many choruses are there and where's the main hook, etc.
    The hook being the catchy memorable bit?
    Link to my trading feedback:  http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/59452/
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  • FreebirdFreebird Frets: 5821
    edited May 2019
    A little bit of theory goes a long way. I focused on the Key of C major/A minor. I learnt all the different chords and scales, then explored the modes, chord tones & non-chord tones, etc.. All the other Keys use the exact same theory, so keep it simple in the beginning, and you can transpose into any other Key.

    C Major Chords:

    C Dm Em F G Am Bdim = I ii iii IV V vi viidim

    C Major Scale:

    c  d e f g a b = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

    So, C Major = c e g = 1 3 5, with non-chord tones d f a b = 2 4 6 7

    Everything is repetition after this, e.g. Dm = 2 4 6, Em = 3 5 7 etc..
    If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.
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  • hotpickupshotpickups Frets: 1813
    Freebird said:
    A little bit of theory goes a long way. I focused on the Key of C major/A minor. I learnt all the different chords and scales, then explored the modes, chord tones & non-chord tones, etc.. All the other Keys use the exact same theory, so keep it simple in the beginning, and you can transpose everything into any other Key.

    C Dm Em F G Am Bdim = I ii iii IV V vi viidim
    That DIM chord is a funny one but I've viewed a few youtube videos is showing how one could use it. Quite a nice chord when used well. 
    Link to my trading feedback:  http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/59452/
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  • hotpickupshotpickups Frets: 1813
    edited May 2019
    Freebird said:
    Here are the cheat sheets..


    Thanks @Freebird yeah I have those and charts like these are a great help. It's when it Comes to soloing on the guitar I get lost and and have a danger in sounding like I'm playing scales all the time. I'm ok with the Blues scale I mentioned earlier as I base all my licks around it etc and I've been doing it for a while now I guess. I would just like to sound better more accomplished by adding more notes of the scale I could use. Modes, full major scale/ minor scale. I guess it alll comes down to just trying stuff out. Some will sound rubbish but may find something that works well
    Link to my trading feedback:  http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/59452/
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  • FreebirdFreebird Frets: 5821
    edited May 2019
    Thanks @Freebird yeah I have those and charts like these are a great help. It's when it Comes to soloing on the guitar I get lost and and have a danger in sounding like I'm playing scales all the time. I'm ok with the Blues scale I mentioned earlier as I base all my licks around it etc and I've been doing it for a while now I guess. I would just like to sound better more accomplished by adding more notes of the scale I could use. Modes, full major scale/ minor scale. I guess it alll comes down to just trying stuff out. Some will sound rubbish but may find something that works well
    In that case try some different scales, but seriously try to make some headway on the theory side. I was bamboozled for a very long time until suddenly everything fell into place. Things went from appearing abstract or random, into having a specific structure with repeating patterns, and I can now work out things in my head before picking up an instrument.

    Maybe download an app for your phone, so that you can have an easy reference close to hand. I use Chord! which is pretty good. When I play a solo I am mostly interested in the position of the tonic & the dominant notes (1&5), and I generally play around those by ear. This is also where the non-chord tones come in handy if you are looking for different flavours.

    You can reverse search with Chord! too, so find some notes that you like, do a scale search and then find the associated harmony chords. There are a lot of ways of doing the same thing!
    If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    @hotpickups said:
    Freebird said:
    A little bit of theory goes a long way. I focused on the Key of C major/A minor. I learnt all the different chords and scales, then explored the modes, chord tones & non-chord tones, etc.. All the other Keys use the exact same theory, so keep it simple in the beginning, and you can transpose everything into any other Key.

    C Dm Em F G Am Bdim = I ii iii IV V vi viidim
    That DIM chord is a funny one but I've viewed a few youtube videos is showing how one could use it. Quite a nice chord when used well. 
    Ooh I’d love to see some examples please, because dim chord (in a major key as chord vii) is really rare, at least I can’t find any - they’re always 1st inversions of the V. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    Nah no talent here mate, just experience!!

    I also think about the arrangement of songs alot too, like section by section, as a guitar tutor I'm forever learning and teaching songs so I get used to how they're structured. Take one of your favourite songs and look at how its laid out, what does it start with, how many choruses are there and where's the main hook, etc.
    The hook being the catchy memorable bit?
    Yes, could be a vocal melody, or a guitar riff, etc.
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  • hotpickupshotpickups Frets: 1813
    viz said:
    @hotpickups said:
    Freebird said:
    A little bit of theory goes a long way. I focused on the Key of C major/A minor. I learnt all the different chords and scales, then explored the modes, chord tones & non-chord tones, etc.. All the other Keys use the exact same theory, so keep it simple in the beginning, and you can transpose everything into any other Key.

    C Dm Em F G Am Bdim = I ii iii IV V vi viidim
    That DIM chord is a funny one but I've viewed a few youtube videos is showing how one could use it. Quite a nice chord when used well. 
    Ooh I’d love to see some examples please, because dim chord (in a major key as chord vii) is really rare, at least I can’t find any - they’re always 1st inversions of the V. 
    Only really good for a passing chord and resolved with the route or I chord I believe 
    Link to my trading feedback:  http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/59452/
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 7273
    So my first process would be to forget about the guitar solo, its almost always a minor role in a song. I'd also very rarely start with the melody. I was actually listening to a podcast with Patrick Stump from falloutboy who said it really well that the melody is teh easy bit, its the fun bit and you only have a good melody if it relates to something else that's going on.

    So for me it starts with a riff, chord progression of bass line.

    Then once I have a few sections I'lls tart to think about the peaks and troughs in intensity I want to ahve in the song and try out a rough structure. Only then will I look at vocal ideas (although these days more often I'll work with my bands singer for that since he's way better).

    Stuff like the solo I wont think of in terms of modes or scales but first i'll chart it out in what major sections do I want. Like do I want long held notes here, or do i want fast runs to build into a crescendo. Once I have that outline ill just play random garbage in the right style and repeat until I iterate onto something I like..

    So while I might not have the most muscially accomplished solo, it will be one that has some direction and tells a story.
    ဈǝᴉʇsɐoʇǝsǝǝɥɔဪቌ
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  • FuengiFuengi Frets: 2849
    Would you base the riff off a chord shape or play within a pentatonic? 
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 7273
    It depends on the type of part, if its groove oriented then I typically start just improvising anything, there's definitely shapes that come under my fingers more often but an initial idea will often come from noodling and then picking something out from that. There's probably a high amount of pentatonic stuff but it could just as easily be totally chromatic. 

    For something that's more chord or arpeggio driven I might play around within the chord shape looking for notes that add the right "colour" to the basic progression.
    ဈǝᴉʇsɐoʇǝsǝǝɥɔဪቌ
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