Diminishing returns set in early?

darthed1981 · July 2019

I actually saved up a pot of about 4k for my dream guitar and amp at one point.

Still not found an expensive guitar or amp I actually want!

The reality for me is, I know very well that there is one thing which will get me where I want to be as a player, and that's practise and playing songs with other people.

In fact "playing songs with other people quite often" is probably what I'd like, and gear doesn't help with that one bit.

It's a set of thoughts that come back to me whenever I'm about to hit "buy" and its probably saved me a fortune.

TINMAN82 · July 2019

darthed1981 said:

I actually saved up a pot of about 4k for my dream guitar and amp at one point.

Still not found an expensive guitar or amp I actually want!

The reality for me is, I know very well that there is one thing which will get me where I want to be as a player, and that's practise and playing songs with other people.

In fact "playing songs with other people quite often" is probably what I'd like, and gear doesn't help with that one bit.

It's a set of thoughts that come back to me whenever I'm about to hit "buy" and its probably saved me a fortune.

I need some of your self restraint!

Matt_McG · July 2019

I never get a license to spend money on guitars. When we were first married, no money. When we first had our son, no money. Now that there's a bit more money, for perfectly sensible reasons with which I am in agreement, family priorities pretty much always come first.

But, I'm about to hit, some time this summer, a major personal milestone (in terms of weight lost/fitness gained) and celebrating that is likely to be the only time I can indulge in the next 5 - 10 years.

So, I am very happy to spend 6-800 quid on something good, and which is a platform for sensible upgrades (and a really good fret job), or equally happy to spend 1500-2500 on something nominally better. But I'd resent spending 1500-2500 quid on something that needs the same amount of work as the 800 quid guitar to get me to something I'm truly happy with.

But what I'm unlikely to be able to do is enter into a long cycle of flipping guitars -- sometimes making a small profit, sometimes making a loss -- until I get something that'll "stick".

The process of trying things, I guess, is at least informing me what I like and don't like. Only probably being, currently, what I like (of what I've tried) is ... not much.

Greatape · July 2019

I have played a lot of expensive guitars - mostly Suhrs, PRS and Fender CS - and certainly, I've lusted after these unobtainable items. However, recently I borrowed a Mexican strat that had received a lot of tlc and a set of Alegree pickups. That guitar seriously closes the gap between it and higher priced guitars.

darthed1981 · July 2019

TINMAN82 said:

darthed1981 said:

I actually saved up a pot of about 4k for my dream guitar and amp at one point.

Still not found an expensive guitar or amp I actually want!

The reality for me is, I know very well that there is one thing which will get me where I want to be as a player, and that's practise and playing songs with other people.

In fact "playing songs with other people quite often" is probably what I'd like, and gear doesn't help with that one bit.

It's a set of thoughts that come back to me whenever I'm about to hit "buy" and its probably saved me a fortune.

I need some of your self restraint!

To be honest, financial anxiety caused by my Dad's spending issues when I was a kid plays a big part - I wouldn't give me too much credit!

guitars4you · July 2019

Ossyrocks said:

I don’t think I have ever found a guitar in a shop that plays better than anything I owned at the time. But, most shops neglect their guitars as compared with owners. Old strings, poor actions, intonation, setup, pickup adjustments etc etc. I find that I have to look past the guitar’s current personality and see a potential in it once you have put the time in setting it up.

An exception to this were the two R8’s I got from Peach last year without playing them first. They came in the post and were almost perfect on arrival.......almost.

Rob

So baffling isn't it such presentation - Imagine looking at some nice cut glass wine glasses with a chip on the rim, or lipstick stains - Or a nice watch with finger marks on the glass facing - That nice German motor that looks like it has just finished a rally stage - You probably wouldn't buy them

I appreciate the finer detail regarding any set-up is a matter of taste - But to present a guitar to a potential buyer that is way out of tune, covered in finger marks and not resembling any form of a sensible set up - I just don't get it

Sure in the store the customer will need/wish to try a guitar - But when it goes back on the rack it should be clean and polished

Matt_McG · July 2019

Yeah, the guitars I was trying should have had very slinky setups, but, with maybe one exception, they were all higher with more relief than I would have dialled in, and in a couple of cases, they had the sort of high combative action I’d associate with a tele set up in heavy string “agricultural” mode. Quite dry, rather than oil rich feeling rosewood, too.

darthed1981 · July 2019

guitars4you said:

Ossyrocks said:

I don’t think I have ever found a guitar in a shop that plays better than anything I owned at the time. But, most shops neglect their guitars as compared with owners. Old strings, poor actions, intonation, setup, pickup adjustments etc etc. I find that I have to look past the guitar’s current personality and see a potential in it once you have put the time in setting it up.

An exception to this were the two R8’s I got from Peach last year without playing them first. They came in the post and were almost perfect on arrival.......almost.

Rob

So baffling isn't it such presentation - Imagine looking at some nice cut glass wine glasses with a chip on the rim, or lipstick stains - Or a nice watch with finger marks on the glass facing - That nice German motor that looks like it has just finished a rally stage - You probably wouldn't buy them

I appreciate the finer detail regarding any set-up is a matter of taste - But to present a guitar to a potential buyer that is way out of tune, covered in finger marks and not resembling any form of a sensible set up - I just don't get it

Sure in the store the customer will need/wish to try a guitar - But when it goes back on the rack it should be clean and polished

I often notice this and it is bizarre, in my most local store a lot of guitars are sitting on the racks hideously out of tune, appallingly badly set up and sometimes even dirty fingers after a quick noodle dirty.

..and behind the counter five or six guys doing bugger all. If every guitar was at least set up as well as I can set one up, clean and not too out-of tune, then maybe they would sell more?

TeleMaster · July 2019

I can recommend a musicman st Vincent. Amazing neck.

imalrightjack · July 2019

For a little out of budget, my Williams custom build is definitely the best playing guitar I’ve ever had. Wonderful build quality but, more than anything, it was built to order. I think I can improve the pickups, to taste, but otherwise a great buy. I’d truly consider finding a UK luthier to make you something truly special for you.

thegummy · July 2019

Grumpyrocker said:

I've come to really believe the diminishing returns starts quite early now. The PRS SE Singlecut I bought recently has convinced me of that.

So in theory what would more money add to this guitar?

Better pickups? Well yes but I feel there's a whole lot of bullshit in this market too. The pickups on the SE Singlecut are better than on other SEs I've tried. But if I did want to upgrade £60 would get me a nice set of Iron Gear and really that would do.

Full maple cap? Well yes, but that's just a load of wood I couldn't see anyway. Figured tops are nice, but there's no point having more wood than a veneer - despite what some people think it's not see through. A plain maple cap with a veneer is just fine thank you very much.

I guess I could add some locking machine heads, but I'm just reaching now.

The real thing that would make it a £1800 guitar would be paying USA level wages to those that made it, and perhaps an even bigger percentage of that money being just a little sticker that says "Made in the USA".

That's something that really annoys me - the Fender American guitars are higher end guitars then the Mexican ones and should be more expensive but then they make the arbitrary decision to make them in America which adds an extra expense. (And it is arbitrary; I find it weird that even Americans believe other Americans would be better at working in a factory, even weirder for non-Americans to think that).

So if all the models were made in the same country, the Professional series would still be more expensive but not the difference that exists.

With Schecter, for example, I'd be much more confident that their price differences are more indicative of quality differences since they're made at the same place.

mrkb · July 2019

darthed1981 said:

I actually saved up a pot of about 4k for my dream guitar and amp at one point.

Still not found an expensive guitar or amp I actually want!

The reality for me is, I know very well that there is one thing which will get me where I want to be as a player, and that's practise and playing songs with other people.

In fact "playing songs with other people quite often" is probably what I'd like, and gear doesn't help with that one bit.

It's a set of thoughts that come back to me whenever I'm about to hit "buy" and its probably saved me a fortune.

Give me some dates when you’re free to pop round for a jam, and we can get that happening more often. There’s also Pete’s Hertford Jam in two weeks.

Jez6345789 · July 2019

With most Asian brands these days just basic stuff being Cnc is going to get far greater accuracy on the basic geometry of the guitar and combined with some bespoke set up and fretwork along with a few judicious parts upgrades is going to take you a long way into the diminishing returns argument.

i spent a lot of time a few years ago making a Strat partscaster for my best friends birthday and frankly I amazed myself how close you could get to a really good played in fit and finish for doing the fine detailing of rolled edges and super smooth neck feel and all that good stuff you get from a serious money Fender or PRS.

Simplefact is these days you don’t need to spend a lot to get a really useful guitar with good feel.

Snags · July 2019

@mrkb @darthed1981 What Mark said ...

Neil · July 2019

thegummy said:
That's something that really annoys me - the Fender American guitars are higher end guitars then the Mexican ones and should be more expensive but then they make the arbitrary decision to make them in America which adds an extra expense. (And it is arbitrary; I find it weird that even Americans believe other Americans would be better at working in a factory, even weirder for non-Americans to think that).

So if all the models were made in the same country, the Professional series would still be more expensive but not the difference that exists.

With Schecter, for example, I'd be much more confident that their price differences are more indicative of quality differences since they're made at the same place.

Not arbitrary in reality.

Fender started in the US, their roots are there, they are part of Americana.

Sure, the Mexican guitars can be very fine, got one myself, but to me Fender is an American institution and probably is to a whole lot of other people.

I guess it's a tangible link to the past that is still in its home country.

People are always a bit sad when a British firm leaves these shores for total offshore production and I guess that is similar with Fender.

At the end of the day it is all about emotion.........and playing a guitar is a very emotional thing.

Nikc · July 2019

Neil said:

thegummy said:
That's something that really annoys me - the Fender American guitars are higher end guitars then the Mexican ones and should be more expensive but then they make the arbitrary decision to make them in America which adds an extra expense. (And it is arbitrary; I find it weird that even Americans believe other Americans would be better at working in a factory, even weirder for non-Americans to think that).

So if all the models were made in the same country, the Professional series would still be more expensive but not the difference that exists.

With Schecter, for example, I'd be much more confident that their price differences are more indicative of quality differences since they're made at the same place.

Not arbitrary in reality.

Fender started in the US, their roots are there, they are part of Americana.

Sure, the Mexican guitars can be very fine, got one myself, but to me Fender is an American institution and probably is to a whole lot of other people.

I guess it's a tangible link to the past that is still in its home country.

People are always a bit sad when a British firm leaves these shores for total offshore production and I guess that is similar with Fender.

At the end of the day it is all about emotion.........and playing a guitar is a very emotional thing.

You know BMW are a German institution as are VW and not forgetting Mercedes of course - yet I've not heard people comparing the differences in a German made car ar one out of Spain, South Africa , India, Austria, Russia, Poland, USA etc.... and there are even more.

You see these companies set up a plant and build cars - the guitar makers seem to set up production and then go out of their way to charge extra based on where the guitar is made not how or to what standard it is made - just IMO of course

thegummy · July 2019

Neil said:

thegummy said:
That's something that really annoys me - the Fender American guitars are higher end guitars then the Mexican ones and should be more expensive but then they make the arbitrary decision to make them in America which adds an extra expense. (And it is arbitrary; I find it weird that even Americans believe other Americans would be better at working in a factory, even weirder for non-Americans to think that).

So if all the models were made in the same country, the Professional series would still be more expensive but not the difference that exists.

With Schecter, for example, I'd be much more confident that their price differences are more indicative of quality differences since they're made at the same place.

Not arbitrary in reality.

Fender started in the US, their roots are there, they are part of Americana.

Sure, the Mexican guitars can be very fine, got one myself, but to me Fender is an American institution and probably is to a whole lot of other people.

I guess it's a tangible link to the past that is still in its home country.

People are always a bit sad when a British firm leaves these shores for total offshore production and I guess that is similar with Fender.

At the end of the day it is all about emotion.........and playing a guitar is a very emotional thing.

Okay change "arbitrary" to "because they were started there but still absolutely nothing what so ever to do with the skill of the workers or the quality of the tools used" and my point is exactly the same.

thegummy · July 2019

Even looking in to that sentimental aspect and ignoring that it has zero affect on the guitar itself - it's not made by the same people as it was in the 50s, it's not owned by the same people or even the same family, it's not even in the same factory - the only link is that the piece of ground the factory that currently makes those guitars is within the same man-made political boundries as the old factory was.

It doesn't stand up to any kind of reason; like practically every nationalistic idea it's fantasy.

ChuckManual · July 2019

The diminishing returns thing is real and, sometimes, stark.

I used to have an Ibanez George Benson GB12, which was a wonderful guitar that I enjoyed for years. I eventually sold, though, it to fund a nice acoustic. A few years after that, I had a yearning for another big old Jazz box again and I picked-up an Ibanez Artcore AF105F, secondhand, for an absolute pittence.

Now; is the Artcore as good as the Benson? Don't be silly. Is it £1500 worse? Don't be insane! It's a cracking guitar that is only a marginally poorer instrument. I've had to replace the bridge - and the neck p/up has recently crapped-out on me ...but the body really projects and the neck/fretboard/fretwork is (seriously) just as good as the GB12.

Rather than trying to spend two and a half grand to spend on a guitar, I think it's better to go out and try as many guitars as you want, that are all under £2501, and buy the one you like the most, regardless of how little it costs. And buy secondhand too - your money will go waaay further.

thegummy · July 2019

It would be nice if companies took the cost of materials + cost of labour + how much profit they want to make per guitar and kept that so as you go up their range, the better the guitar gets, the material cost goes up, the labour cost might go up but only if the added features actually take longer and the profit per guitar amount stayed the same.

That would mean that the more you paid for a guitar, the higher spec a guitar you were getting and by a proportional amount when it comes to value (though not necessarily in terms of how much effect it has on tone/playability etc. as the diminishing returns would still kick in).

But it seems that for a company who make their guitars in the same country, the cost of materials and labour goes up as expected but then they also want to make more profit per guitar so add more on (possibly to exploit people who are by definition willing to pay more to begin with).

Then with Fender specifically, about half way up their range, the labour cost doesn't just go up based on extra time taken, it goes up because of the economy of the country they chose to make those models in. And I also believe they add even more to the profit per guitar amount because they know so many people have this idea that being made in America is of value in itself and will pay extra for it.

So, like I said earlier, a £1400 Fender is better than a £500 Fender but not by as much as a £1400 Schecter is better than a £500 Schecter - and, even then, I don't believe that the £1400 Schecter cost them £900 more to manufacture.

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