Finished Pics! Dreadnought Acoustic Build - Black Limba

Andyjr1515 · July 2019

Final bit of tidying up before the top is glued on, but everything else is ready. The dark line in the centre of the top, by the way, will disappear at the final sanding, which won't be done until the back and the binding are all on:

TTony · July 2019

Andyjr1515 said:

Just look at the design thought and then care & attention that's gone into making that. Love the bookmatched walnut - didn't need to be done that way, but those are the design details that make the difference between wow, and WOW !!

Beautiful work Andy.

Andyjr1515 · July 2019

TTony said:

Andyjr1515 said:

Just look at the design thought and then care & attention that's gone into making that. Love the bookmatched walnut - didn't need to be done that way, but those are the design details that make the difference between wow, and WOW !!

Beautiful work Andy.

You'll make me blush

Thanks - means a lot
Andy

earwighoney · July 2019

Andyjr1515 said:

Final bit of tidying up before the top is glued on, but everything else is ready. The dark line in the centre of the top, by the way, will disappear at the final sanding, which won't be done until the back and the binding are all on:

The second picture of the bracing is superb, I've not seen a fair amount of pictures of bracing but not much that looks like yours - something I mean in a good way. Difficult to describe but the braces for the lower bout that look 'braided', not something I've really seen before - different to the standard scalloped braces.

With skills as fine as yours I hope you keep making acoustics but for the next time around as a sucker for Larson Bros guitars (IMO the most overlooked guitar makers of all time, and makers of some of the best) with wood working skills as fine as yours it'd be great to hear/see a guitar with laminated bracing. It'd give you a chance to use a few scraps of rosewood you'd gather along the way as well!

Danielsguitars · July 2019

It's so long ago that i did bracing but remember it being one of the most satisfying things to do on an acoustic build

Andyjr1515 · July 2019

Danielsguitars said:

It's so long ago that i did bracing but remember it being one of the most satisfying things to do on an acoustic build

Yes - definitely!

earwighoney said:

The second picture of the bracing is superb, I've not seen a fair amount of pictures of bracing but not much that looks like yours - something I mean in a good way. Difficult to describe but the braces for the lower bout that look 'braided', not something I've really seen before - different to the standard scalloped braces.

Hmmm...braided. Not sure quite what that means but if it's good then yes - of course that's fully intentional!

The bracing starts off fairly generic 30's-Martin-standard-X-brace concept - it's the 'Elite Guitar Plans' plan I'm using. In the tap tuning process you then modify the shape, deepening the scallops where you are looking for more flexibility, etc, but then I have followed the video guy above's preference on the two smaller side braces on the bass side of removing the scallops altogether. This is where I am still a bit cautious.

As @Danielsguitars said above, the ideal would be to have 3-4 tops where you could afford to take some of the scalloping and slimming to its limits and then you would know actually what you are listening for and what gets you where...but that's a lot of very expensive wood.

Interestingly, though, decent wood for the braces is very cheap...certainly compared with the cost of decent top material which is eye-wateringly expensive!

Andyjr1515 · July 2019

It's when you build the next one, you remember the things you meant to do after the last one.

"I must buy or make some more spool clamps" I NOW remember saying and remembered at the all-important dry-run (there are things you don't want to be messing around with - such as setting the clamp heights - when the glue is on and drying!)

But it is quite close fitting so, rather than wait a few days for extras to arrive, I reverted to my previous compromise of using tape to keep the pressure on the in-between bits. Based on the additional squeeze-out, it's probably OK.

earwighoney · July 2019

Andyjr1515 said:

Danielsguitars said:

It's so long ago that i did bracing but remember it being one of the most satisfying things to do on an acoustic build

Yes - definitely!

earwighoney said:

The second picture of the bracing is superb, I've not seen a fair amount of pictures of bracing but not much that looks like yours - something I mean in a good way. Difficult to describe but the braces for the lower bout that look 'braided', not something I've really seen before - different to the standard scalloped braces.

Hmmm...braided. Not sure quite what that means but if it's good then yes - of course that's fully intentional!

The bracing starts off fairly generic 30's-Martin-standard-X-brace concept - it's the 'Elite Guitar Plans' plan I'm using. In the tap tuning process you then modify the shape, deepening the scallops where you are looking for more flexibility, etc, but then I have followed the video guy above's preference on the two smaller side braces on the bass side of removing the scallops altogether. This is where I am still a bit cautious.

As @Danielsguitars said above, the ideal would be to have 3-4 tops where you could afford to take some of the scalloping and slimming to its limits and then you would know actually what you are listening for and what gets you where...but that's a lot of very expensive wood.

Interestingly, though, decent wood for the braces is very cheap...certainly compared with the cost of decent top material which is eye-wateringly expensive!

I don't think I described my observations properly! Difficult to describe but the bracing looks superb.

I always thought really decent back and side sets were where the major expense went! Like a set of a 'rare' rosewood can be £400-500! Prices seem to go up by the year as well. Just having a look at David Dyke's website, £500+ for a set of African Blackwood!

As for soundboards, when I had a custom guitar built for me the guy who made it went to a place in the Alps and to pick out 20 odd sets from countless many. It's not something I know much about but I get the impression a lot of the mark up occurs from grading.

Andyjr1515 · July 2019

earwighoney said:

I always thought really decent back and side sets were where the major expense went! Like a set of a 'rare' rosewood can be £400-500! Prices seem to go up by the year as well. Just having a look at David Dyke's website, £500+ for a set of African Blackwood!

As for soundboards, when I had a custom guitar built for me the guy who made it went to a place in the Alps and to pick out 20 odd sets from countless many. It's not something I know much about but I get the impression a lot of the mark up occurs from grading.

My personal view only....

Well - this is a bit like the 'tonewood' debate for electrics so all I can answer is what I've learned from lots of reading and listening and what I've experienced myself. And yes - the guy in the video talks about the contribution of the back wood to the tone of his own guitars. But he is making guitars where everything else really is pretty much optimised...

Basically, the back's job is to reflect the sound coming off the soundboard back to the front, through the soundhole.

It does affect the volume - a soft wood will tend to absorb the sound rather than reflect it - but it doesn't effect the tone very much at all providing that it has enough rigidity and hardness to act as a good reflector in the first place. Does it make ANY difference? I'm sure it does. But would you notice the difference of tone in a direct comparison, given other variables? My view is 'probably not'. Certainly nowhere near as much as you would hear a change of string make or material, or playing style, position and attack. But remember I am talking about tone. The volume may well be audibly different.

The million dollar question is would I, if I was buying a commercial guitar - and as an acoustic guitar builder (built 3 so far - one OM and two dreadnoughts) - choose solid back and sides or laminated? The answer is that it wouldn't even be on my list of comparison factors. The look of the back and sides would, but there are some great looking veneered laminated back and side guitars around.

About the price? Well, nice looking woods are eye-wateringly expensive, whatever they are going to be used for. And for many species, the number of examples of good visual quality at the size required - much bigger than for an electric or bass - and with consistent structural integrity over that whole area, can be a very small percentage of the overall supply.

The soundboard grain structure, on the other hand, IS important to the tone. Very important. The tighter and straighter the grain lines, the more consistently it will resonate and the more rigid it will be, allowing it to be sanded thinner - which allows it to resonate even more - while retaining the strength it needs to support the string tension without bowing or buckling. And quartersawn timber of that width within the limits of the physical size of a pine tree...and without knots (think how many side branches come off a pine tree) means that you don't get many AAAAA quality tops out of a fully grown tree!

And then there's the other side of me, of course, who thinks - so how can the bare timber JUST FOR THE NECK - cost me more than a perfectly decent sounding and performing complete and finished acoustic guitar from the far east??????

AustrianJohn · July 2019

Wonderful build thread - thanks.

Andyjr1515 · July 2019

AustrianJohn said:

Wonderful build thread - thanks.

Thanks!

It's gone OK so far - but there's plenty of time yet for catastrophe

Andyjr1515 · July 2019

earwighoney said:

As for soundboards, when I had a custom guitar built for me the guy who made it went to a place in the Alps and to pick out 20 odd sets from countless many. It's not something I know much about but I get the impression a lot of the mark up occurs from grading.

By the way, @earwighoney ; - that sounds like some custom build! Any more details / pics?

earwighoney · July 2019

Andyjr1515 said:

earwighoney said:

As for soundboards, when I had a custom guitar built for me the guy who made it went to a place in the Alps and to pick out 20 odd sets from countless many. It's not something I know much about but I get the impression a lot of the mark up occurs from grading.

By the way, @earwighoney ; - that sounds like some custom build! Any more details / pics?

Hello Andy, I was going to reply to your other one about woods but some Sunday drinking got the better off me and I'm slower to things before.

Pictures of my guitar are here
https://umgf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=161868&p=2330858&hilit=00+21s#p2330858

And in that very long thread there are pictures of the luthier making a trip to the place in the Alps where he went to buy the spruce, it looked like 'El Dorado' for soundboards!

Andyjr1515 · July 2019

earwighoney said:

Andyjr1515 said:

earwighoney said:

As for soundboards, when I had a custom guitar built for me the guy who made it went to a place in the Alps and to pick out 20 odd sets from countless many. It's not something I know much about but I get the impression a lot of the mark up occurs from grading.

By the way, @earwighoney ;; - that sounds like some custom build! Any more details / pics?

Hello Andy, I was going to reply to your other one about woods but some Sunday drinking got the better off me and I'm slower to things before.

Pictures of my guitar are here
https://umgf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=161868&p=2330858&hilit=00+21s#p2330858

And in that very long thread there are pictures of the luthier making a trip to the place in the Alps where he went to buy the spruce, it looked like 'El Dorado' for soundboards!

Well, now I've seen this, I am seriously flattered that you are following my thread

I have indeed heard of Marklund Guitars. They have a monster reputation. But I've never spoken to anyone who HAS a Marklund!

You talk about nice bracing...middle of Page 238...Wow - just Wow!

It is also fascinating looking at some of the details. Particularly that the X braces on the lower bout are significantly scooped.

From what I understand, this is all about generating the bass response. My guess is that Per will be using very high quality materials for his tops and that gets him the requisite strength without relying so much on the X braces. Big question is, do I have the material quality, and the skill, and the b***s to slim down further my own X braces. Particularly given that I don't really know what I'm doing

But that's just a guess on my part

So, so pleased you posted this @earwighoney ;;

p.s. I assume it is musical nectar?

earwighoney · July 2019

Andyjr1515 said:

I have indeed heard of Marklund Guitars. They have a monster reputation. But I've never spoken to anyone who HAS a Marklund!

You talk about nice bracing...middle of Page 238...Wow - just Wow!

It is also fascinating looking at some of the details. Particularly that the X braces on the lower bout are significantly scooped.

From what I understand, this is all about generating the bass response. My guess is that Per will be using very high quality materials for his tops and that gets him the requisite strength without relying so much on the X braces. Big question is, do I have the material quality, and the skill, and the b***s to slim down further my own X braces. Particularly given that I don't really know what I'm doing

p.s. I assume it is musical nectar?

I like it lot! His work is indeed very neat and tidy, in particular the bracing work.

As for what Per does with his bracework, I don't have the slightest bit of knowledge to the technicalities of how they are scalloped and so on.

Back to the issue of back and side woods.

A while back I was quite obsessive to the differences of back & side set and I do there are differences for a example a classic Martin OM with Mahogany back/sides would be different to say one with Brazilian Rosewood (eg to compare a pre war OM18 to a OM28) but I don't think the differences are as significant as the person/company who made the guitar, again a crude example but a Spruce/Rosewood Martin dread will sound completely different to a Spruce/Rosewood Taylor dread.

Personally having spent a large chunk on 'exclusive' tonewood upgrades, I wouldn't do it again.

As a player, I think there are other factors that are far more important which include cost, comfort (body size, string spacing etc) and durability.

Regarding the latter, I once went to visit a luthier who makes acoustic guitars, who posts on another forum I frequent and had the good fortune of trying a fair number of the guitars he'd built for himself. He's also of the opinion the back/sides aren't as important as many consider, but when I got around to trying an instrument with a European Spruce soundboard/African Blackwood back and sides he just kind of admitted defeat to that particular principle and said something along the lines 'Aside from African Blackwood, it seems to produce superb instruments, but it seems prone to cracking.' ABW, and a few other woods like Brazilian RW, Ziricote seem to have a few issues here and there with cracking and so on.

Andyjr1515 said:

The soundboard grain structure, on the other hand, IS important to the tone. Very important. The tighter and straighter the grain lines, the more consistently it will resonate and the more rigid it will be, allowing it to be sanded thinner - which allows it to resonate even more - while retaining the strength it needs to support the string tension without bowing or buckling. And quartersawn timber of that width within the limits of the physical size of a pine tree...and without knots (think how many side branches come off a pine tree) means that you don't get many AAAAA quality tops out of a fully grown tree!

The grain lines of a soundboard is something which seems to come up now and again, and I have absolutely idea what makes a certain soundboard better or worse than another, but for aesthetics I like the look of ones with as many 'imperfections' as possible. Like this one.

Andyjr1515 · July 2019

I'll respond more fully when I have a bit more time tomorrow, @earwighoney , but I know what you mean about imperfections. My personal weakness is 'bearclaws'. I saw a nice Guild covered in them. It was expensive, but if MrsAndyjr1515 hadn't been there I know I would have bought it, even though I didn't need another acoustic

earwighoney · July 2019

Andyjr1515 said:

I'll respond more fully when I have a bit more time tomorrow, @earwighoney , but I know what you mean about imperfections. My personal weakness is 'bearclaws'. I saw a nice Guild covered in them. It was expensive, but if MrsAndyjr1515 hadn't been there I know I would have bought it, even though I didn't need another acoustic

What was it? I think they are the American guitar maker that is the most underappreciated. IMO, the F212 is one of the all time great designs. It's a shame there isn't a proper repro of it or a 112.

Andyjr1515 · July 2019

earwighoney said:

Andyjr1515 said:

I'll respond more fully when I have a bit more time tomorrow, @earwighoney , but I know what you mean about imperfections. My personal weakness is 'bearclaws'. I saw a nice Guild covered in them. It was expensive, but if MrsAndyjr1515 hadn't been there I know I would have bought it, even though I didn't need another acoustic

What was it? I think they are the American guitar maker that is the most underappreciated. IMO, the F212 is one of the all time great designs. It's a shame there isn't a proper repro of it or a 112.

I think it was an F40 but I've never seen one with anything like the figuring that was on this particular one...

paulnb57 · July 2019

As always Andy - superb!

Andyjr1515 · July 2019

paulnb57 said:

As always Andy - superb!

You say the nicest things, @paulnb57 ;

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Finished Pics! Dreadnought Acoustic Build - Black Limba

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