Another "career" thread

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  • ESBlondeESBlonde Frets: 3576
    Stop trying to be the big man with drinking, fags, substance abuse. You will regret it (if you live long enough).
    You have reached the time of life when you are the provider. You have to take second seat to the family for a while,  this phase will pass and you will be proud of all you have done but it takes years. School was years but you survived and flourished, you can do it and you know you can. Select the job that provides but hang on to your dreams. 
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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 27340
    ESBlonde said:
    Stop trying to be the big man with drinking, fags, substance abuse. You will regret it (if you live long enough).
    You have reached the time of life when you are the provider. You have to take second seat to the family for a while,  this phase will pass and you will be proud of all you have done but it takes years. School was years but you survived and flourished, you can do it and you know you can. Select the job that provides but hang on to your dreams. 
    ^^
    Critical friend.
    Having trouble posting images here?  This might help.
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  • jonnyburgojonnyburgo Frets: 12253
    Dont know what to say really Drew but try not to give them too much mate, it only benefits them. Things will improve but you’ve got to take those steps when you are a bit clearer maybe after a holiday or something. Best of luck pal.
    "OUR TOSSPOT"
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  • fastonebazfastonebaz Frets: 4065
    Masturbate furiously for a couple of hours,  you'll feel much better. 

    Or change tact and get a job in the theatre,  still working with audio etc but different and capped hours.  

    Searching for jobs with audio in reveals loads of careers I'd never imagined.  Eg police audio unit field engineer sounds kind of interesting.   Searching on keywords yields interesting new lines of enquiry. 
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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 28280
    Sounds a real bummer. The extra hours thing is something of a trap that one can get sucked into. I realised last week that due to working through lunches most days and staying late most days I have basically been working a 6 day week since mid-March. The difference for me is that I do basically enjoy my job. What does get on my t*ts is that I have a great pal at work who also works like mad most of the time, but another guy has announced that he is going to do 'compressed hours'. They owe me a shedload of compressed bloody hours!!! (that I will never see back)

    Anyway, not helping you ..... I agree with others on making time for your family. My kids are all pretty grown up now (well, youngest still 14), but I greatly cherish all those different ages/phases. Wonderful times and they grow out of some of the best bits so soon. I'd also agree with try and ditch the booze. My oldest son drank a lot, worried me to be honest, but his girlfriend suddenly found herself expecting and he quit virtually all of his drinking and is actually saving some money for the first time in his life. Didn't think I'd ever see that! Ditching booze can be done by most people.

    One thing that I have never done in life is take a chance, quit my safe world and go out on a limb to try to make my lot better. If I felt that bad about a job I think I'd risk a big change. Think of what you would rather be doing in an ideal world and see if you can plan a route to it. Don't worry about how pie in the sky it is.
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  • SchnozzSchnozz Frets: 1926
    I had a friend like this and he applied for 3 jobs and got 2 interviews and then went for the one that was double his pay with less hours and he's not moving. He turned down the other which was more pay, because he didn't like the atmosphere/personalities. I was amazed how long he had worked for his previous company. 

    Another friend has recently done the same, doubling his pay but doing factory shifts, so not quite as good as the former, but still.
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  • KittyfriskKittyfrisk Frets: 18374
    Masturbate furiously for a couple of hours,  you'll feel much better. 

    Or change tact and get a job in the theatre,  still working with audio etc but different and capped hours.  

    Searching for jobs with audio in reveals loads of careers I'd never imagined.  Eg police audio unit field engineer sounds kind of interesting.   Searching on keywords yields interesting new lines of enquiry. 
    'Or change tact and get a job in the theatre,  still working with audio etc but different and capped hours.'
    Honest question. Have you worked in this area in this capacity in reality?
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  • fastonebazfastonebaz Frets: 4065
    @Kittyfrisk yes I was a musician in the theatre for a while. Great fun.
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  • KittyfriskKittyfrisk Frets: 18374
    A musician, generally a fine idea.
    But a technician involved in sound, lighting, mixing, cueing etc; sometimes all at once, while dealing with a bunch of prima donna musicians, performers, directors, producers, guests, VIP friends... maybe not so great  ;)
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  • KittyfriskKittyfrisk Frets: 18374
    PS. On reflection, sorry to be diluting/sidetracking this discussion with possibly irrelevant bollocks. 
    My bad.
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11411
    If you have the skills, then working in a different field might be worth it.

    One of my best friends is a programmer, and a very good one.  He got what he thought was his dream job with a games firm.  Problem was that the company was being run by guys who started out in their back bedroom with a Spectrum in the 80s.  They couldn't run what had grown into quite a big company by that time, and it was not a good place to work.  He was far happier when he left and got a job writing financial software.

    If you can do something different during the day, then the music and video stuff becomes fun again.
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  • TeetonetalTeetonetal Frets: 7801
    Change is not always the answer, but it can be.

    Last year I was in a similar position. Been with the company 7 years, they did a restructure, downsized everywhere. I ended up with a boss who did not want me or my team and showed so little interest in me, that at one point we didn't even speak for 8 weeks!

    Job hunting itself was liberating. I was honest with myself about what I wanted, what I was good at and applied only for things that I genuinely thought would be a good challenge or offer development.

    My new job has proved to be eye opening and extremely challenging, yet I very seldom have to work long hours. I've lost some flexibility but I am so much happier. 
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11788
    A musician, generally a fine idea.
    But a technician involved in sound, lighting, mixing, cueing etc; sometimes all at once, while dealing with a bunch of prima donna musicians, performers, directors, producers, guests, VIP friends... maybe not so great  ;)
    my mate was principal sound engineer at a large venue once (took the role to get a mortgage, not poss on freelance). They had him there until the last drinker in the bar left every night to lock up at 1am or whatever. He soon resigned and went back to freelance
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11788
    OK, I've told my kids this and I'll tell anyone.
    The UK is home to one of the 2 largest financial centres in the world. 
    This means that there is a lot of cash flowing, and a lot of IT needed
    If you can get into any kind of role in IT in this country, there is a lot of cash, for those from any background

    For example 3 years ago, I worked with a woman with a fine art degree and masters, working as a contract PM in IT in her late 20s in Manchester, I'd guess on £400-£500 a day

    I've met architects who were chefs, and lots of incompetent project managers on perfectly good senior salaries doing normal hours. there are any number of roles in Live service, run teams, PMO, BAs, infra that are mostly populated by bright people who did not do computer science a levels or degrees
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  • Right, got a bit of time to tackle this thread this morning. I'll try and not be all woe is me about it!
    What's driving the length of the work days? Deadlines? If so then I'm sure there will be pressure to work on your off day, so that may not help. If it's just a feeling of obligation which is driving the hours then the off day sounds like a good plan.

    But when it comes down to it, you are being abused and need to get out of there if possible, I would say.
    A good chunk of it is the "obligation" thing. You work with the same people for nearly 12 years, and you start to develop these patterns. I don't often push back against deadlines because on some level I know I can get it done. Even if it means sitting at a computer for 18 hours going delirious as I edit audio and address mistakes other people have made. It's 8am, and I'm sat here next to my kid, and I'm already doing bits of work. I officially don't start until 10am... so that tells you my mindset.

    Jalapeno said:
    Have you asked for a serious career 121 with your boss ? Things often won't change unless you take the initiative. Most companies will milk employees to the max, not because they're devious exploitative gits (though occasionally some are), but that's how things drift along, and employees step-up to fill a need/vacuum and so it goes ..... 
    This is where I have to be a little careful. But yes, I have done this before. Not only with my direct boss but with another staff member who felt that because I had an allegiance to one particular product, that it meant I wasn't suitable for a product management/product owner position. That was sort of the death knell of that part of my career. Somehow I'm still expected to do product ownery things though and that seems to be something that even when I do push back on, it's expected of me.

    p90fool said:
    Firstly, if your income is even slightly stretched because of alcohol you need to stop. Now.

    I know you know this and it can feel like the only way to wind down after a long hard day, but you need to find a healthy alternative. 

    Next, you need to find time for your wife and child, these are years you won't ever get back. 

    Career-wise only you can know really, but it is possible to breeze your way through a stressful job by emotionally prioritising other areas of your life - work is not everything, or shouldn't be. 

    If you feel unappreciated just cut your hours back to your contracted hours and spend more time with your family.

    If you don't have full creative control then you also don't have sole responsibility for deadlines, let some other mug take the strain unless they reward you for your efforts. 

    All this is very easy to type, but you need to start changing how work affects your emotions. 
    Good observations. I wont lie, and I will be transparent. I probably spend around £200-£250 on alcohol each month. That's based on going over my outgoings with the wife one time last year. That's more than I spend on transport. I know it's a problem, but nothing else "works" as such ... I've tried getting into exercise, swimming, all that jazz... seems to work for a month or two and then poof.... There is a part of me that could quite happily be a stay at home dad. 90% of the time I enjoy spending time with my daughter and making her laugh, feeding her, taking her the park etc... I see a lot of the mums in the area and from where I sit, they've got it cushy. Simply can't afford for me to not work though, and the other part of me... the part that wants to achieve... wouldn't be happy to do it. Pretty schizophrenic about family versus work versus passions tbh.


    From the sound of things, you are in that perfect storm stress place, of not being able to do what you love doing; not having any real control over how things are done and also working extra hard, running to stand still. Also putting self esteem into work, which is natural, but often totally disregarded by others.
    Throw in a home life etc. and it just isn't sustainable for you (or anyone else).

    Or, can you get access to a 'talking therapy' ( sorry, but that's what they call counselling these days) maybe via a GP?

    Seeking help is not a failure or a weakness, it is the realisation that you really aren't managing on your own.
    That is a bloody hard thing to admit, but it is a positive thing to realise that you're not alone in feeling like this.

    I actually had a round of talking therapies with the NHS at the start of the year. It helped a bit. And I learned some tools to deal with anxiety and stress in the short-term, but the long-term hasn't changed very much. You're right about putting self esteem into work (even band stuff as well tbh!)
    Can you get into non-music instrument IT software Quality assurance? i.e. "testing"? or IT project management / product ownership? Do you have any skills in "Agile" projects?
    I possibly could. I've got a lot of QA experience already as it's what I did for the first 5 years. I've deliberately resisted the idea of A: going into non-music sectors and B: going back into QA. I applied for a QA Manager position last year and would've got the job if I ... er.. didn't tell them in my interview that QA wasn't really where I wanted to be!!! Stupid. Feels like it would be a step backwards, regardless of the likely higher pay brackets. I do have experience with Agile. Tends to be a buzzword that is thrown around, but everything we do is Agile in some way.
    Stuckfast said:
    Could you not jump ship to one of the other companies in the field developing similar products? I know of several that have expanded rapidly in recent years, and with it being a niche field, I doubt there are too many well-qualified people out there,
    Believe it or not, there aren't very many companies in London that specialise in music-tech. Things are changing a bit, but the UK isn't the best place for music tech. Germany, Japan, and the USA would be much better.

    Bye!

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  • WiresDreamDisastersWiresDreamDisasters Frets: 16664
    edited July 2019
    TTony said:
    Serious question / suggestion.

    Is there anyone you can talk to, face to face, regularly?

    Posting here is an outlet, you can vent, but it’s largely one way, and probably helps for even less time than a drink.

    Few people here (if anyone) know you well enough, are experienced and objective enough, and will also tell you stuff that you don’t want to hear (in a way that ensures that you do *hear* it, to give back what you need from the venting.

    Sometimes called a “critical friend” it has to be someone you trust completely, someone close enough that that either know you or can understand your situation, but someone sufficiently removed from your day to day life that you won’t have any embarrassment (at the time, or later) if you share the personal stuff with them.  Because it will and should get very personal.  It’s not just about the shit work stuff.

    Just to make the job description tougher, it also needs to be someone who’ll be critical when necessary rather than giving meaningless (and useless) platitudes, and someone whose advice you’ll respect.

    That gives you the 2-way interaction - you can still vent, but you’ll get something positive back.  It also needs to be a long-term thing - that critical friend needs to stick around and be there when you’re happy as well as when you’re less happy.

    HTH.


    Well, yes... I have friends. lol. I even have some who will tell me I'm totally full of shit when indeed I am! So yes, I do have this. But could I pick a specific individual? Maybe not. A good friend who used to work with me is very good at this, but we don't see each other regularly.
    axisus said:
    One thing that I have never done in life is take a chance, quit my safe world and go out on a limb to try to make my lot better. If I felt that bad about a job I think I'd risk a big change. Think of what you would rather be doing in an ideal world and see if you can plan a route to it. Don't worry about how pie in the sky it is.
    Yep, I can relate to that. I feel a lot of regret already about not seizing life by the balls, and I'm only just about to turn 35. Becoming a dad has kind of killed my ambition.
    ESBlonde said:
    Stop trying to be the big man with drinking, fags, substance abuse. You will regret it (if you live long enough).
    You have reached the time of life when you are the provider. You have to take second seat to the family for a while,  this phase will pass and you will be proud of all you have done but it takes years. School was years but you survived and flourished, you can do it and you know you can. Select the job that provides but hang on to your dreams. 
    I don't smoke and I don't abuse substances or do drugs or anything like that. It's not about being the big man, but I will be completely honest... the idea of taking second seat really does not sit well with me. If anything makes me want to top myself, it's the idea that I'm no longer important and that I'm just a tool or a resource to be mined. That is terrible and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Families and marriages are partnerships, and everyone's needs are important. Which is why they are so tricky. Lost count the number of guys (yes, specifically men) who have turned themselves into a kind of secondary citizen within their marriage and family for it to only backfire when they get divorced or he dies in his 40's having never done anything for himself. Seriously, seen it a lot.

    Bye!

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  • fields5069fields5069 Frets: 3826
    Right, got a bit of time to tackle this thread this morning. I'll try and not be all woe is me about it!
    What's driving the length of the work days? Deadlines? If so then I'm sure there will be pressure to work on your off day, so that may not help. If it's just a feeling of obligation which is driving the hours then the off day sounds like a good plan.

    But when it comes down to it, you are being abused and need to get out of there if possible, I would say.
    A good chunk of it is the "obligation" thing. You work with the same people for nearly 12 years, and you start to develop these patterns. I don't often push back against deadlines because on some level I know I can get it done. Even if it means sitting at a computer for 18 hours going delirious as I edit audio and address mistakes other people have made. It's 8am, and I'm sat here next to my kid, and I'm already doing bits of work. I officially don't start until 10am... so that tells you my mindset.

    .
    The trouble is, many companies thrive off hard working employees like you, but are you sharing in the company's success? Many people think that still having a job is in some way "success", and companies are happy to let you go on thinking that way. But at the end of the day you are selling a service, and at the moment the company is getting at least half an employee free of charge. If you are propping up the company's business model, with no hint of any thanks (shares, cold hard cash, etc.), then it's time to reduce those hours.

    My hope is that, by reducing those hours, you will be in a position to plan more activities with your family outside work, which will (I hope) lead naturally to less drinking. If you want to stay in this job then, in my opinion, this is the way forward.
    Some folks like water, some folks like wine.
    My feedback thread is here.
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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
    Stuckfast said:
    Could you not jump ship to one of the other companies in the field developing similar products? I know of several that have expanded rapidly in recent years, and with it being a niche field, I doubt there are too many well-qualified people out there,
    Believe it or not, there aren't very many companies in London that specialise in music-tech. Things are changing a bit, but the UK isn't the best place for music tech. Germany, Japan, and the USA would be much better.
    The UK might not be the very best place in the world to do this but it's way better than 95 percent of countries. On the virtual instrument / sample library front there's Spitfire Audio (who have grown hugely in the last few years), Soniccouture, Loopmasters, AMG, Zero-G and probably plenty more that I can't recall off the top of my head. Focusrite have a software division that is based in London. I think the old Sibelius team that develops Dorico is still based in the UK. And I'd imagine that there are quite a few people in the UK doing development work for German, Japanese and US companies. Korg and Yamaha for example have fairly large operations in the UK. Tatsuya Takahashi, who developed all the modern Korg analogue synths, came from London. NI and Waves have done stuff at Abbey Road which must have involved UK people.

    If you have an idea for a product that you want to develop, maybe shop it around some of these companies?
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  • Stuckfast said:
    Stuckfast said:
    Could you not jump ship to one of the other companies in the field developing similar products? I know of several that have expanded rapidly in recent years, and with it being a niche field, I doubt there are too many well-qualified people out there,
    Believe it or not, there aren't very many companies in London that specialise in music-tech. Things are changing a bit, but the UK isn't the best place for music tech. Germany, Japan, and the USA would be much better.
    The UK might not be the very best place in the world to do this but it's way better than 95 percent of countries. On the virtual instrument / sample library front there's Spitfire Audio (who have grown hugely in the last few years), Soniccouture, Loopmasters, AMG, Zero-G and probably plenty more that I can't recall off the top of my head. Focusrite have a software division that is based in London. I think the old Sibelius team that develops Dorico is still based in the UK. And I'd imagine that there are quite a few people in the UK doing development work for German, Japanese and US companies. Korg and Yamaha for example have fairly large operations in the UK. Tatsuya Takahashi, who developed all the modern Korg analogue synths, came from London. NI and Waves have done stuff at Abbey Road which must have involved UK people.

    If you have an idea for a product that you want to develop, maybe shop it around some of these companies?
    I'm in quite a strange position. If you take my CV and my day to day at face value, then I'm a full-time employed audio engineer and content developer.

    But the vast majority of that work in the music tech industry is contracted out. So right now I'm unemployable unless I lean on my other areas of expertise and experience. That's how it looks from my pessimistic viewpoint right now anyway.

    Bye!

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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
    So you want/need a staff position rather than a contract gig? Hmmm. It still might be worth asking around -- I know that Spitfire for instance have grown from four people to over seventy in about five years...
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