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What do you think you would do if...

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  • SassafrasSassafras Frets: 30273
    I've been first on the scene 3 times when people have had epileptic fits. That's more scary than when they've been in accidents.
    Very unpredictable.
    What is it about epileptics I find so irresistible?
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 24210
    Some interesting replies here.  I witnessed this exact scenario on Monday.  I did as many here said they would do - I left them to it.  I was reassured by the bloke saying “it’s ok, he’s breathing” and assumed a) that an ambulance had already been called and that b) he’d fallen over on the steps he was lying on, and probably banged his head or something.  After all, it’s fairly common for oldies to fall and/or pass out.

    I carried on up the steps and saw a medical centre at the end of the road.  I quickened my pace a little and popped my head in to tell them of the unconscious man.  They ran out to assist.

    I went back to my hotel, a short walk away.

    Ten minutes later, I decided to go back to see if he was ok.

    He was there - laid out under a white sheet.  He’d died.

    I have been revisiting the event over and over in my mind and in retrospect, I could have done more.  I might have been able to have saved his life if I’d acted differently.

    After some research, it seems probable that the guy had suffered cardiac arrest.  Gasping, a common feature of arrest is often mistaken for breathing it turns out.  What I SHOULD have done is realise that none of the people around him were doing anything specific other than trying to rouse him by shouting “David, David - can you hear me?” and taken charge myself.  What I didn’t know was that I SHOULD have immediately started chest compressions - regardless of whether I could feel a pulse.  You can not damage a pumping heart by giving chest compressions.

    I SHOULD have shouted to ask if anyone knew where the nearest public defibrillator was and get them to grab it.  I should have checked an ambulance had already been called and also sent someone to check if the hotel had a doctor (they do).

    My lack of knowledge (and everyone else’s in the vicinity) could well have cost this man his life.  Yes, it’s possible that it was something else that was not survivable no matter what, but if that was the case I wouldn’t have made matters worse by trying CPR.

    I feel guilty because I didn’t do these things.  Despite having had a heart attack myself, I’ve always just assumed that there’s no need to perform CPR on someone who is breathing.  The guidance is that you should always start chest compressions on an unconscious patient who isn’t breathing normally.

    I’ve learned two things from this - one, I need to go on a CPR course and two, everyone should know where their nearest public defibrillator is.  I know where my two nearest are in my village.  Do you know where yours is ?  If you needed to find one urgently, for your partner or a stranger, or were asked where one was because your neighbour was having a heart attack, would you know?  Find out today where yours is.  You won’t have time to go searching in an emergency.

    Another thing I’ve learned is that there is no national database of public defibrillator locations!  Unbelievable!  Not even the ambulance call handlers know where they all are.
    There is a plan to create one but it’s not materialised yet.  

    I feel sick sick because there was a chance David might be alive now if I’d had better basic knowledge and the gumption to step in and apply it instead of making a lot of assumptions and walking away.  It’s unlikely I’ll encounter that scenario again but if I do, I’m going to act differently - and in the meantime, I’m going to find an emergency first aid course.
    Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    Also chips are "Plant-based" no matter how you cook them.
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  • FYI, from just an, "OK Google, where's the nearest defibrillator?", this was the first link:

    http://www.heartsafe.org.uk/aed-locations
    <space for hire>
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 31368
    Depends how much I'd bet on him in the tramp fight. 
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  • KilgoreKilgore Frets: 8599
    @Emp_Fab ;

    It's easy with hindsight.

     Don't beat yourself up about it. You appear to get stressed out enough by all kinds of stuff. Don't let this be the same. Look after yourself. 
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  • SassafrasSassafras Frets: 30273
    There's always a risk of breaking someone's ribs with chest compressions.
    When he sues you for grievous bodily harm, you'll wish you'd left him to it.
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  • MattBansheeMattBanshee Frets: 1498
    edited February 2020
    Emp_Fab said:
    Some interesting replies here.  I witnessed this exact scenario on Monday.  I did as many here said they would do - I left them to it.  I was reassured by the bloke saying “it’s ok, he’s breathing” and assumed a) that an ambulance had already been called and that b) he’d fallen over on the steps he was lying on, and probably banged his head or something.  After all, it’s fairly common for oldies to fall and/or pass out.

    I carried on up the steps and saw a medical centre at the end of the road.  I quickened my pace a little and popped my head in to tell them of the unconscious man.  They ran out to assist.

    I went back to my hotel, a short walk away.

    Ten minutes later, I decided to go back to see if he was ok.

    He was there - laid out under a white sheet.  He’d died.

    I have been revisiting the event over and over in my mind and in retrospect, I could have done more.  I might have been able to have saved his life if I’d acted differently.

    After some research, it seems probable that the guy had suffered cardiac arrest.  Gasping, a common feature of arrest is often mistaken for breathing it turns out.  What I SHOULD have done is realise that none of the people around him were doing anything specific other than trying to rouse him by shouting “David, David - can you hear me?” and taken charge myself.  What I didn’t know was that I SHOULD have immediately started chest compressions - regardless of whether I could feel a pulse.  You can not damage a pumping heart by giving chest compressions.

    I SHOULD have shouted to ask if anyone knew where the nearest public defibrillator was and get them to grab it.  I should have checked an ambulance had already been called and also sent someone to check if the hotel had a doctor (they do).

    My lack of knowledge (and everyone else’s in the vicinity) could well have cost this man his life.  Yes, it’s possible that it was something else that was not survivable no matter what, but if that was the case I wouldn’t have made matters worse by trying CPR.

    I feel guilty because I didn’t do these things.  Despite having had a heart attack myself, I’ve always just assumed that there’s no need to perform CPR on someone who is breathing.  The guidance is that you should always start chest compressions on an unconscious patient who isn’t breathing normally.

    I’ve learned two things from this - one, I need to go on a CPR course and two, everyone should know where their nearest public defibrillator is.  I know where my two nearest are in my village.  Do you know where yours is ?  If you needed to find one urgently, for your partner or a stranger, or were asked where one was because your neighbour was having a heart attack, would you know?  Find out today where yours is.  You won’t have time to go searching in an emergency.

    Another thing I’ve learned is that there is no national database of public defibrillator locations!  Unbelievable!  Not even the ambulance call handlers know where they all are.
    There is a plan to create one but it’s not materialised yet.  

    I feel sick sick because there was a chance David might be alive now if I’d had better basic knowledge and the gumption to step in and apply it instead of making a lot of assumptions and walking away.  It’s unlikely I’ll encounter that scenario again but if I do, I’m going to act differently - and in the meantime, I’m going to find an emergency first aid course.
    Firstly, and most importantly;

    When I did my first aid course, the paramedics leading the course said that, even with a paramedic or FA trained bystander performing CPR to a high standard, a person in cardiac arrest has about a 25-30% of survival. The very first thing they told us was that, the majority of the time, performing CPR does not save the person, and one has to understand that and cannot blame themselves for someone dying in their care. This applies to you too.

    Secondly; I highly, highly recommend that everyone takes an emergency first aid course. Mine cost £35, took half a day, and you get a very useful course book and are certified for three years. I also now carry latex gloves and a resus mask in my car glove box at all times.

    There's also an app that gives AED locations. For anyone wondering; AEDs start talking to you as soon as they are picked up, they give you all instructions necessary and administer all shocks automatically; you just stick the pads on, continue CPR until it shouts at you to get clear because it's about to shock. The paramedic at the course told me that they are designed to be absolutely idiot-proof.
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  • GrunfeldGrunfeld Frets: 4028
    Emp_Fab said:
    ...you’re walking along the road and come across an old man laying in the recovery position, apparently unconscious...
    My first thought was, "Search the body."
    I played way too much D&D as a kid.
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  • Musicwolf said:
    I once saw a motor cyclist drop his bike, slide headlong into a car coming the other way, and then slide down the road.  I was first to react but, as I ran towards him, I thought 'if he is still alive, I've absolutely no idea what to do'.  Fortunately he was alive (it eventually turned out that all he had suffered was gravel rash and a broken coxis) but all I could do was talk to him, keep him still and make sure taht nobody tried to remove his helmet.  A passing ambulance driver (not a paramedic) arrived before the emergency ambulance.

    Despite good intentions I still haven't learned first aid.
    I got involved in a similar incident a couple of years ago. A teenager on a dirt bike tried to pass a line of traffic near a cross roads, and went at speed into the side of a car turning accross his path. Setting aside whose fault it was, he finished up hitting a garden wall pretty hard but was conscious and moving, and telling anyone who'd listen to eff off.

    Fortunately one of the other passers by was an off duty firefighter who took charge of imediate first aid. I called 999, and when I'd finished ended up having to divide my time between comforting the car driver who was in shock, and prevent some of the rider's mates from taking his bike away. I was glad when the police and paramedics showed up.

    It turned out that he'd only just got out of hospital after a similar crash, and that his bike was uninsured and not roadworthy.
    I'll get a round to buying a 'real' guitar one day.
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  • munckeemunckee Frets: 12255
    edited February 2020
    Sassafras said:
    There's always a risk of breaking someone's ribs with chest compressions.
    When he sues you for grievous bodily harm, you'll wish you'd left him to it.
    When I did first aid training they quoted that no-one has ever been successfully sued in the UK relating to administering first aid - not sure if still true now.



    Years ago I went on a work do 2 days after starting a new job, a woman on the do went quiet during the meal and then wine started coming out of her nose and she started to go white, she was choking and everyone else sat there frozen - I tried to give her the heimlich maneuver, she was a foot shorter than me and round like a barrel.

    What became quickly apparent was that its incredibly different to do and I probably should have been whacking her back but I tried repeatedly and nothing happened.  At the point I thought she was going to die any second she passed out and became a dead weight and fell through my arms hitting her head on the floor which caused the piece of steak lodged in her throat to come out.

    So I was utterly useless but its nearly always better to do something than nothing.
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  • Sassafras said:
    There's always a risk of breaking someone's ribs with chest compressions.
    When he sues you for grievous bodily harm, you'll wish you'd left him to it.
    Slight urban myth-style misunderstanding there. The it's the cartilage connections between the ribs and the sternum that break, not the rib bones themselves. Also, not a slight chance... almost a certainty.
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  • SeshSesh Frets: 1839
    munckee said:
    Sassafras said:
    There's always a risk of breaking someone's ribs with chest compressions.
    When he sues you for grievous bodily harm, you'll wish you'd left him to it.
    When I did first aid training they quoted that no-one has ever been successfully sued in the UK relating to administering first aid - not sure if still true now.



    Years ago I went on a work do 2 days after starting a new job, a woman on the do went quiet during the meal and then wine started coming out of her nose and she started to go white, she was choking and everyone else sat there frozen - I tried to give her the heimlich maneuver, she was a foot shorter than me and round like a barrel.

    What became quickly apparent was that its incredibly different to do and I probably should have been whacking her back but I tried repeatedly and nothing happened.  At the point I thought she was going to die any second she passed out and became a dead weight and fell through my arms hitting her head on the floor which caused the piece of steak lodged in her throat to come out.

    So I was utterly useless but its nearly always better to do something than nothing.
    To be fair, although your actions were not text box, she ultimately didn't die and your intervention helped steer the situation to that conclusion.

    Most first aid is common sense, managing situations and doing the best you can until professional help arrives. It's not all roadside tracheotomies with nothing more than a bic biro and a rusty spoon.
    Can't sing, can't dance, can handle a guitar a little.
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  • ESBlondeESBlonde Frets: 3576
    Maybe a bit of crowd control or traffic management if applicable. I don't worry about blood and gore but have no medical training since boys brigade 50 years ago! Otherwise I'd look around for a responsible adult!
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  • ronnybronnyb Frets: 1742
    Sassafras said:
    There's always a risk of breaking someone's ribs with chest compressions.
    When he sues you for grievous bodily harm, you'll wish you'd left him to it.
    I'm just in the middle of my 3 day re-qualification for first aid (see other thread 'Corona virus and first aid'). This subject was discussed. I was told that no one has ever been sued for administrating first aid or in fact can be, the reason being that no one would want to give first aid in the future.  
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  • GrunfeldGrunfeld Frets: 4028
    edited February 2020
    Slight urban myth-style misunderstanding there. [a previous quoted comment.] The it's the cartilage connections between the ribs and the sternum that break, not the rib bones themselves. Also, not a slight chance... almost a certainty.
    @MattBanshee --  I've always thought rib fractures were common.  Couple of papers on the subject here:






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  • Grunfeld said:
    Slight urban myth-style misunderstanding there. [a previous quoted comment.] The it's the cartilage connections between the ribs and the sternum that break, not the rib bones themselves. Also, not a slight chance... almost a certainty.
    @MattBanshee --  I've always thought rib fractures were common.  Couple of papers on the subject here:






    I was just repeating what I was taught, but those very interesting papers seem to show otherwise.
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 24210
    edited February 2020
    I'm sure this chap wouldn't have minded a few broken ribs if the alternative was death.

    My point is, I was unprepared for what I was presented with.  Had I been more prepared, this man might have lived, his wife would not be widowed, his children left without a father.  I'm not taking all the blame - the same applies to everyone else there - including his wife and friends who also (possibly) unwittingly contributed to his demise through their own lack of knowledge.

    I imagine that if there is an afterlife, he's probably pig-sick that his life was lost because nobody in the vicinity could be bothered to learn what to do in that scenario.

    Find out where you can do a life saving course.  Know where your local defibrillator is.  Odds are that one day your life will be in the hands of strangers who may be able to save you or might just gawp from the sidelines.
    Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    Also chips are "Plant-based" no matter how you cook them.
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  • SnapSnap Frets: 6256
    Something similar happened to us the other weekend. We asked if they needed help, they did, we did. It worked out alright. Doesn't cost much to offer help, even if it's just comforting someone in the situation, for a bit. 

    Fair point on CPR training though, even general first aid, can't say I'd know what to do. Thankfully my wife does.
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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 6378
    My nearest defibrulator is outside the pub half a mile away !
    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • DominicDominic Frets: 16013
    edited February 2020
    Go through his pockets and take his watch when the others weren't looking......it's quicker than trying to get a kidney
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