Little revelation about sharps and flats

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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited November 2019
    sev112 said:
    Ah that’s an interesting way of looking at it

    So the Key of F is actually F#flat, because it contains flats (I.e the Bflat)

    does anyone one know how to type a correct ”flat” symbology a keyborad?

    Flat is just written as a small b - use that. 

    The key of F is not the key of F#b “F sharp flat” - that doesn’t make sense.

    Look at the circle of 5ths. From the top, C; clockwise in blue you have all the “sharp keys” - in other words the keys that deploy one or more sharps. F# is at the bottom. 

    G (1 sharp)
    D (2 sharps)
    A (etc)
    E
    B
    F# (6 sharps)
    C#


    Anticlockwise, in green, you have all the “flat keys” - the ones that deploy at least 1 flat. F is just to the left of C and has one flat, as you rightly said. 

    F (1 flat)
    Bb (2 flats)
    Eb (etc)
    Ab
    Db
    Gb
    Cb


    my original ‘rule of 7’ is that if you know the number of sharps in, say, D (2), you can calculate the number of flats in Db (5). 

    By the time you get round the SHARPS to F# (6), that means that the key of F has 1 flat. 

    Or vice versa, if you know that F has 1 FLAT, then F# must have 6 SHARPS. 

    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 2739
    Flats aren’t lower case b - they have an angularity and a bit of curve - not the same as “b”. Is there actually a way of typing it?
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited September 2020
    sev112 said:
    Flats aren’t lower case b - they have an angularity and a bit of curve - not the same as “b”. Is there actually a way of typing it?
    Understood and I managed to get it on my keyboard - look at my pic of the circle of fifths. But you can’t get it on an i-phone. Even if you type it on a keyboard I’m not sure it will come through as a character on the forum software. 

    But nothing else in music uses the lower case b so most people just use that. Oh here it is:♭
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited November 2019
    Here’s a dodecahedron die to demonstrate it. It has the sharps from 1-6 and the flats from 1-6. 

    As each face is a pentagon it can only accommodate 5 sharps or flats (1 at each corner) so you have to include the actual sharp or flat of the key-name in the centre of the pentagon when counting. Eg F# has 6 sharps. 

    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 2739
    viz said:
    sev112 said:
    Flats aren’t lower case b - they have an angularity and a bit of curve - not the same as “b”. Is there actually a way of typing it?
    Understood and I managed to get it on my keyboard - look at my pic of the circle of fifths. But you can’t get it on an i-phone. Even if you type it on a keyboard I’m not sure it will come through as a character on the forum software. 

    But nothing else in music uses the lower case b so most people just use that. 
    PS don’t get me wrong, I think your first post is a work of genius - it is so obvious when you pointed it out, but can’t believe I or anyone else had not spotted it before, :)
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    sev112 said:
    viz said:
    sev112 said:
    Flats aren’t lower case b - they have an angularity and a bit of curve - not the same as “b”. Is there actually a way of typing it?
    Understood and I managed to get it on my keyboard - look at my pic of the circle of fifths. But you can’t get it on an i-phone. Even if you type it on a keyboard I’m not sure it will come through as a character on the forum software. 

    But nothing else in music uses the lower case b so most people just use that. 
    PS don’t get me wrong, I think your first post is a work of genius - it is so obvious when you pointed it out, but can’t believe I or anyone else had not spotted it before, :)
    No prob dude. I just bought a dodecahedron - will video it when it’s made :)
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • Another neat trick for common guitar keys is:

    'D' has 2 sharps the letter 'D' can be written with 2 lines
    'A' has 3 sharps and the letter A can be written with 3 lines
    'E' has 4 sharps and the letter 'E' can be written with 4 lines
    'B' has 5 sharps and the letter 'B' can be written with 5 lines

    Thanks for adding a post I can understand.  I should've known better than to look in the Theory section and just stuck to looking at pictures of shiny guitars.  Joking apart, who might find this revelation useful?  Session musician?  Song-writer?  I'm trying to envisage someone sitting at home thinking 'my life just got easier.'  

    Genuinely no offence meant, @viz clearly knows his stuff.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited November 2019
    uncledick said:
    Another neat trick for common guitar keys is:

    'D' has 2 sharps the letter 'D' can be written with 2 lines
    'A' has 3 sharps and the letter A can be written with 3 lines
    'E' has 4 sharps and the letter 'E' can be written with 4 lines
    'B' has 5 sharps and the letter 'B' can be written with 5 lines

    Thanks for adding a post I can understand.  I should've known better than to look in the Theory section and just stuck to looking at pictures of shiny guitars.  Joking apart, who might find this revelation useful?  Session musician?  Song-writer?  I'm trying to envisage someone sitting at home thinking 'my life just got easier.'  

    Genuinely no offence meant, @viz clearly knows his stuff.

    None taken, it’s helpful for anyone who learns classical music, or anyone who reads or writes music, or anyone who’s interested in how music works. That’s it really. 

    My interest in theory isn’t abstract, it’s grown as I’ve needed it, in reading music, in communicating with other musicians, even just in having effective guitar lessons. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • viz said:
    uncledick said:
    Another neat trick for common guitar keys is:

    'D' has 2 sharps the letter 'D' can be written with 2 lines
    'A' has 3 sharps and the letter A can be written with 3 lines
    'E' has 4 sharps and the letter 'E' can be written with 4 lines
    'B' has 5 sharps and the letter 'B' can be written with 5 lines

    Thanks for adding a post I can understand.  I should've known better than to look in the Theory section and just stuck to looking at pictures of shiny guitars.  Joking apart, who might find this revelation useful?  Session musician?  Song-writer?  I'm trying to envisage someone sitting at home thinking 'my life just got easier.'  

    Genuinely no offence meant, @viz clearly knows his stuff.

    None taken, it’s helpful for anyone who learns classical music, or anyone who reads or writes music, or anyone who’s interested in how music works. That’s it really. 

    My interest in theory isn’t abstract, it’s grown as I’ve needed it, in reading music, in communicating with other musicians, even just in having effective guitar lessons. 
    It's interesting how music can be so many things to so many people.  When I first joined up on here and started reading about Dorian/Mixolydian etc. I mentioned it to a friend of my daughter, who was just completing his music A level and he said "I know what you're talking about, but they don't teach it that way any more!"  I get by on guitar and I'm fortunate in that I play in a band where we all have similar ambitions and abilities which fits with my ethos of 'if you're enjoying it, you're doing it right.'

    My niece is studying music at Goldsmith's and has started doing a few film scores so this will be an interesting conversation when we have our Christmas get-together.  We sometimes have a family 'jam' and she plays a mean fiddle.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    uncledick said:
    viz said:
    uncledick said:
    Another neat trick for common guitar keys is:

    'D' has 2 sharps the letter 'D' can be written with 2 lines
    'A' has 3 sharps and the letter A can be written with 3 lines
    'E' has 4 sharps and the letter 'E' can be written with 4 lines
    'B' has 5 sharps and the letter 'B' can be written with 5 lines

    Thanks for adding a post I can understand.  I should've known better than to look in the Theory section and just stuck to looking at pictures of shiny guitars.  Joking apart, who might find this revelation useful?  Session musician?  Song-writer?  I'm trying to envisage someone sitting at home thinking 'my life just got easier.'  

    Genuinely no offence meant, @viz clearly knows his stuff.

    None taken, it’s helpful for anyone who learns classical music, or anyone who reads or writes music, or anyone who’s interested in how music works. That’s it really. 

    My interest in theory isn’t abstract, it’s grown as I’ve needed it, in reading music, in communicating with other musicians, even just in having effective guitar lessons. 
    It's interesting how music can be so many things to so many people.  When I first joined up on here and started reading about Dorian/Mixolydian etc. I mentioned it to a friend of my daughter, who was just completing his music A level and he said "I know what you're talking about, but they don't teach it that way any more!" 



    Yup, modal music is so comparatively rare in classical music it can be totally skipped by many musicians. But keys and 4ths and 5ths can’t!
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • The way I instinctively work this out with a guitar in my hand is:

    Start on C (bottom E string). 

    flat keys: go up to the 5 string (F, 1 flat) down 2 frets and back on to the 6 (Bb, 2 flats) and carry on that pattern of up to the fith string, then down 2 frets on the 6th.
    sharp keys: Up 2 frets on to the 5th string (G, 1 sharp), down to the 6th (D. 2 sharps) then repeat the pattern up the fretboard, up 2 on the 5th string and down to the 6th.

    Put it in words and it sounds more complicated, but it couldn't be simpler.  You'll quickly start remembering F is one flat and G is one sharp (if you don't know it already), so you'll always know how to start.

    “To a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail.”
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    Hello all! An update from me. 

    I decided to get my little idea made out of wood; they just arrived from Japan this morning, and they’re lovely! 

    What do you think?

    https://youtu.be/m9KOuQmNXD0
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • bloodandtearsbloodandtears Frets: 1645
    edited June 2020
    very cool, father's day presents all round??
    My trading feedback

    is it crazy how saying sentences backwards creates backwards sentences saying how crazy it is?

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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 6378
    Like it - could just learn the circle of 4ths/5ths once and for all of course ;)
    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    Jalapeno said:
    Like it - could just learn the circle of 4ths/5ths once and for all of course ;)
    Of course!
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • martmart Frets: 5205
    edited June 2020
    So, what key are we playing Stairway in today? Hmm, let me just roll the dice ...
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited June 2020
    mart said:
    So, what key are we playing Stairway in today? Hmm, let me just roll the dice ...
    Haha though that reminds me, I’m going to get some made for minor keys, in a darker wood. Cheers!
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • martmart Frets: 5205
    viz said:
    mart said:
    So, what key are we playing Stairway in today? Hmm, let me just roll the dice ...
    Haha though that reminds me, I’m going to get some made for minor keys, in a darker wood. Cheers!
    Love it!
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    Good stuff, that's a new approach.

    The following was the method I found for myself many years ago to see key signatures. I see the flats of keys on the fretboard across in fourths, each subsequent fret adds another note to the key in the cycle of fourths (fifths).

    I see the flats of keys on the fretboard across in fourths. (Low to high string.)

    F = Bb
    Bb = Bb Eb
    Eb = Bb Eb Ab
    Ab = Bb Eb Ab Db
    Db = Bb Eb Ab Db Gb
    Gb = Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb


    I see the sharps of keys on the fretboard across in fourths backwards (fifths). (High to low string.)

    G = F#
    D = F# C#
    A = F# C# G#
    E = F# C# G# D#
    B = F# C# G# D# A#
    F# = F# C# G# D# A# E#


    So, the flat key signatures go across the fretboard from the Bb at the 6th fret in fourths. The sharp go in reverse from the F# at the 2nd fret in inverted fourths (fifths). See the diagram below.












    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited June 2020
    GuyBoden said:
    Good stuff, that's a new approach.

    The following was the method I found for myself many years ago to see key signatures. I see the flats of keys on the fretboard across in fourths, each subsequent fret adds another note to the key in the cycle of fourths (fifths).

    I see the flats of keys on the fretboard across in fourths. (Low to high string.)

    F = Bb
    Bb = Bb Eb
    Eb = Bb Eb Ab
    Ab = Bb Eb Ab Db
    Db = Bb Eb Ab Db Gb
    Gb = Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb


    I see the sharps of keys on the fretboard across in fourths backwards (fifths). (High to low string.)

    G = F#
    D = F# C#
    A = F# C# G#
    E = F# C# G# D#
    B = F# C# G# D# A#
    F# = F# C# G# D# A# E#


    .













    Nice. For me that’s where the 2 mnemonics come in - father charles goes down and ends (battle) - the C# key missing from your list, and for flats, Battle ends and down goes charles’ (father)
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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