Amp modellers vs real amps in studio settings

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I had a discussion with a producer regards a future recording project and I mentioned I'd just started working my way through a HX Stomp and wondered what he thought about using modelers in the studio. He just shook his head. He said he uses them now and again but always prefers not to as he just doesn't think they come close to the real thing when under scrutiny in a studio setting.

He does have a very nice collection of amps but I was a bit surprised at how dismissive he was of amp modellers. Is this still a widely held view?
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 7273
    I dont think so. I'm a member of some production groups on facebook and the kemper is pretty universally praised and there are hundreds of anecdotes of bands being unable to tell the difference between their own amps and a kemper etc. 
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  • MusicwolfMusicwolf Frets: 3627
    camf said:
     I was a bit surprised at how dismissive he was of amp modellers. Is this still a widely held view?

    Opinions are like haemorrhoids, every asshole has one.

    I’ve read interviews in recording mags where some producers absolutely love Kempers but I’ve never seen a survey done which would tell you how opinion is divided.  If you like to work one way and this producer another then it’s a question as to where the power lies.  Is he a big name and you’re desperate to work with him?  Anyone can call themselves a Producer – what’s their track record?  If I was working with someone who’d had a string of hits and I admired their work then I’d be far more likely to respect their opinion.  If it was the chap up the road from me who runs a small studio and rehearsal space who calls himself a producer but is really the studio owner / house engineer then their opinion would carry far less weight and, should they choose to dig their heels in over a particular way of working, I’d likely take my custom elsewhere.

    Are you happy with the Helix or do you prefer his way?

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  • vasselmeyervasselmeyer Frets: 3664
    Split the signal into an amp and the modeller and record the parts on separate tracks. Get him to do a blind test.
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    camf said:
    I had a discussion with a producer regards a future recording project and I mentioned I'd just started working my way through a HX Stomp and wondered what he thought about using modelers in the studio. He just shook his head. He said he uses them now and again but always prefers not to as he just doesn't think they come close to the real thing when under scrutiny in a studio setting.

    He does have a very nice collection of amps but I was a bit surprised at how dismissive he was of amp modellers. Is this still a widely held view?
    What genre's does he usually work in?

    In metal using modellers is normal, even more typical than using hardware amps.
    Axe FX II/III and Kemper rule the roost, but Helix is common too.
    Devin Townsend did his last album with the Axe FX III, after having hired in a load of tube amps and then preferring the Axe FX III.

    If you are looking for 'on the edge' not quite clean guitar tones for rock/blues etc then yes I think real amps still have the edge providing you also have a great sounding room, good microphones, preamps and microphone technique- plus you can record at volume without pissing people off endlessly.

    Even still I take a dry out from the guitar for re-amping through a modeller when I need to.

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  • camfcamf Frets: 1190
    Well, I'm not going to name names from what was a private conversation, as that would be a bit mean. He wasn't being arsey about it, just expressing his preference for amp and mic. I'm pretty sure he has a Kemper in the studio, but he also has a stellar line up of mics, preamps and a lovely old desk, which I guess affects your thinking on the subject. I was just interested to hear what folk who spent a lot of time in studios might think. I'm so new to using a modeller I don't have an opinion, but I've been impressed with the amp models and IRs I've listen to so far. 
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  • camfcamf Frets: 1190
    octatonic said:

    If you are looking for 'on the edge' not quite clean guitar tones for rock/blues etc then yes I think real amps still have the edge providing you also have a great sounding room, good microphones, preamps and microphone technique- plus you can record at volume without pissing people off endlessly.

    Even still I take a dry out from the guitar for re-amping through a modeller when I need to.

    That tends to be the sounds I use, so it may have been said in this context, in reference to my playing style. He does have a really good room and has worked with quite a few big (although not huge) bands/artists. 
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    camf said:
    octatonic said:

    If you are looking for 'on the edge' not quite clean guitar tones for rock/blues etc then yes I think real amps still have the edge providing you also have a great sounding room, good microphones, preamps and microphone technique- plus you can record at volume without pissing people off endlessly.

    Even still I take a dry out from the guitar for re-amping through a modeller when I need to.

    That tends to be the sounds I use, so it may have been said in this context, in reference to my playing style. He does have a really good room and has worked with quite a few big (although not huge) bands/artists. 
    If you like his way of working then go for it.
    My production style is to work with the band the way they want to work.

    I'm not invalidating his way of working- we all have different preferences and perspectives and if you get the best mix from him working that way then job done.
    Certainly recording with tube amps is more fun too.
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  • camfcamf Frets: 1190
    edited July 2020
    @octatonic Yep, this discussion got too specific. I was really more interested in the general question of whether or not people think modellers hold up to the scrutiny of studio quality monitors and professional ears that listen these things day in day out. I guess it's pretty clear from the replies so far, that people think modellers stand up just fine.

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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    camf said:
    @octatonic Yep, this discussion got too specific. I was really more interested in the general question of whether or not people think modellers hold up to the scrutiny of studio quality monitors and professional ears that listen these things day in day out. I guess it's pretty clear from the replies so far, that people think modellers stand up just fine.

    Most people do.
    There is often a difference but it isn't always clear as to whether one sounds better or just different.
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  • andy_kandy_k Frets: 818
    Surely these days there is the option of doing both, with unlimited track counts.
    I would always get a DI of the guitar track anyway, the adage 'it is better to have it and not need it' is a very easy thing these days.
    I can understand having to choose if there are limited channels, and the workflow may suit this, but I don't think many people are limited to 16,24, 48 track recordings these days.
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  • mrleon83mrleon83 Frets: 185
    I think aside from the sound it’s the player interaction with an amp. I record direct using modelling but (IMO) I play better with an amp and I think it’s to do with the interaction and feel, maybe also that my monitors are 5inch the speaker in the guitar amp is 12.. naturally there’s more bottom end (a fair chunk would probably be removed I know).

    So my point is that modellers don’t nail the feel of an amp for me personally. Recorded, does really matter if the performance is decent (prob not as fun)  though ... 
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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
    Most of the serious guitarists and producers I know love the Kemper but they see its role a bit differently. They'll get sounds and do the initial tracking by miking up great amps in a great room, and then when they've got the sound exactly as they want it, they'll profile it so that it's available within the Kemper, either for later overdubs or for live use.
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  • camfcamf Frets: 1190
    Stuckfast said:
    Most of the serious guitarists and producers I know love the Kemper but they see its role a bit differently. They'll get sounds and do the initial tracking by miking up great amps in a great room, and then when they've got the sound exactly as they want it, they'll profile it so that it's available within the Kemper, either for later overdubs or for live use.
    Interesting. So far the worst thing about the HX Stomp is that it’s got me determined to get a Matchless or Bad Cat, knowing I don’t need to drag it out for every rehearsal.
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  • spark240spark240 Frets: 2073
    As the artist the producer should really use the sounds you are comfortable with whatever the source...if things arent working he can suggest other routes, ...maybe try a mix of both , ?


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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 7273
    octatonic said:
    camf said:
    @octatonic Yep, this discussion got too specific. I was really more interested in the general question of whether or not people think modellers hold up to the scrutiny of studio quality monitors and professional ears that listen these things day in day out. I guess it's pretty clear from the replies so far, that people think modellers stand up just fine.

    Most people do.
    There is often a difference but it isn't always clear as to whether one sounds better or just different.
    the original pod was all over commercial recordings so yeah i reckon the current gen modellers are just fine :)
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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
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    I think some of it comes from people recording using modellers while listening on headphones.

    It says in the AxeFX manual specifically not to do this. 

    I think you do lose something by not having the acoustic coupling of the amp and guitar, but you can still do that with a modeller you just don't put a mic on the speaker.
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    octatonic said:
    camf said:
    @octatonic Yep, this discussion got too specific. I was really more interested in the general question of whether or not people think modellers hold up to the scrutiny of studio quality monitors and professional ears that listen these things day in day out. I guess it's pretty clear from the replies so far, that people think modellers stand up just fine.

    Most people do.
    There is often a difference but it isn't always clear as to whether one sounds better or just different.
    the original pod was all over commercial recordings so yeah i reckon the current gen modellers are just fine :)
    Yeah agree- I did several records with the Pod Pro XT.
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  • camfcamf Frets: 1190
    I think some of it comes from people recording using modellers while listening on headphones.

    It says in the AxeFX manual specifically not to do this. 

    I think you do lose something by not having the acoustic coupling of the amp and guitar, but you can still do that with a modeller you just don't put a mic on the speaker.
    So you have the amp in the room but take the signal direct from your modeller? Is that what you mean?
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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
    tFB Trader
    camf said:
    I think some of it comes from people recording using modellers while listening on headphones.

    It says in the AxeFX manual specifically not to do this. 

    I think you do lose something by not having the acoustic coupling of the amp and guitar, but you can still do that with a modeller you just don't put a mic on the speaker.
    So you have the amp in the room but take the signal direct from your modeller? Is that what you mean?

    The AxeFX manual suggests using studio monitors pointing at the guitar, but I've done it by recording DI guitar while playing through an amp before. I actually really like that way of working as I don't fart about trying to get tones when I just want to do a take.
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  • KeefyKeefy Frets: 2272
    I think if you can achieve and record a sound that makes you want to play, go for it, however you do it.
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