Amp recommendations ~ something for shimmering Fender type cleans

ICBM · August 2014

Kebabkid said:

Re:pedals, try the Catalinbread 5F6 (supposedly based on a tweed circuit). It sounds good and warms up solid state amps and imparts sine Fendery sparkle, chime and bounce into non-Fender amp

If it really is based on a 5F6 circuit, it would make everything sound like a Marshall

.

(The Marshall JTM45 is a straight 5F6-A Bassman copy, and all Marshalls up to the 2203 Master Volume are essentially derivatives of that.)

ChrisMusic · August 2014

@Kebabkid I saw you piece on the 5F6, I would love to get the opportunity to try one. It was partially reading that which lead to the thought that maybe there is a pedal option which may suit. It is a steep learning curve, all this stuff with amp tones and pedals and the interactions along the specific signal chains. I never had anything like these options when I used to play. Still good for GAS though

Now you have really got me there ICBM, not being sure what differentiates the various Fender flavours. A Fender never sounded like a Marshall back in my past life, which is sort of where all this came from. Now you have got me confused and intrigued in equal measure.

Kebabkid · August 2014

That's interesting. I use a H&K Tubemeister 36 which has EL84s and I went into Guitar Guitar, told the guy the Fendery, spongy sound I was after and he recommended the 5F6 and it achieved that. I'm talking Nile Rodgers, Sultans of Swing, Long train runnin'
ICBM knows his onions but try it and see @ChrisMusic (gain should be 9-10 with everything else at midday, maybe knock back the middle a but more) and see what your ears tell you.

ICBM · August 2014

It might of course not be based on a 5F6 - hard to see how it can be accurately unless it's a full valve preamp! - but just called that

.

There's a world of difference between a Fender *Tweed* clean sound and what is now usually thought of as a 'Fender clean' sound, which is a Blackface/Silverface sound. A Tweed clean sound is in fact much more 'Marshally' - rich and slightly 'hairy' rather than deep and bell-like. So it could be slightly confusing if you're looking for one and get something which gives the other.

A pedal which will definitely give you more of the Blackface sound is the Boss fender Deluxe Reverb pedal. It doesn't sound exactly like a Deluxe Reverb but it does get roughly into the same ballpark. (Personally I find the knob layout and lack of a separate tremolo footswitch option massively annoying, though... so I didn't buy it.)

Adji · August 2014

Never heard one in person but everytime I hear a Port City Pearl I think: 'man, that is the base clean tone I want.'

Voxman · August 2014

Perhaps one of the most under-rated (and reasonably priced) British amp manufacturers around is Laney. Two amp lines might suit you, both of which are all tube Class A:

Laney VC30 which comes in 1x12, 2x12 and 2x10 flavours. Really nice warm shimmering, glassy cleans, with a decent overdrive channel too.

Lany Lionheart range is a slightly more boutique version of these, available as 5w and 20w combos, and 20w and 50w heads - here's a demo vid of the Lionheart L20H with 2x12 cab:

richardhomer · August 2014

^
That sounds nothing like a 'shimmering Fender'. Cleans on that clip are distinctly 'British'.

ICBM · August 2014

The VCs aren't Class A either - typical hot-running cathode-biased Class AB.

The Lionhearts are (probably) Class A.

Not that it matters.

ThePrettyDamned · August 2014

The 20 watt lionheart sounds really quite different from the 50, I though. Though it does sound good, the 50 is very much into fendery clean territory, though not the same - it's still one of the best clean sounds I've ever heard, mind.

Peavey classic 50 has a great sounding clean, too. Although if you want proper fendery cleans, the hot rod deluxe is really good, and apparently get even nicer after a speaker change.

I stick by my original statement though - if you want to spend out a bit, British hand made is the way to go. It'll still be cheaper than most USA boutique offerings (and some off the shelf ones!) but it'll kick all the arse and you can specify which fendery sound you want.

koneguitarist · August 2014

JohnPerry said:

Carr Slant. Channel 1 is basically a blackface Deluxe Reverb. I was able to compare them side by side for hours a couple of years back. Best Fender cleans I've ever heard. Channel 2 is a Marshally Voxy Tweedy hybrid. Fantastically well built. Two used ones in Coda. 40w but steps down to half-power if needed. If i could only have one amp I reckon that would be it.

Great amp. This or a 70's Pro reverb, I always stuck OD and drive pedals in the normal channel to go for more vintage tones, whilst keeping the reverb/vibrato channel for the cleans.

Voxman · August 2014

ICBM said:

The VCs aren't Class A either - typical hot-running cathode-biased Class AB.

The Lionhearts are (probably) Class A.

Not that it matters.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Although Both the VC and Lionheart series are listed by Laney as Class A amps (I have the VC30-210 by the way - lovely amp)
in the strictest electronics terms you're half right in that just like the Vox AC30 these aren't true Class A all through the power spectrum as although they start off in Class A mode, once 'pushed' into distortion they then technically move into Class A/B territory.

Very few amps qualify as true Class A (I had a little Vox AC4 on loan for a while which I think was true Class A) - not even the Marchless DC30 or the Black Cat 30 are true Class A.

There's been tons written on what Class A really is as I'm sure you know, but for anyone interested in the Class A tag and what it really means, I found this helpful article:

http://www.guitarplayer.com/miscellaneous/1139/all-about-class-a-amplifiers/15242

And for any one more techy (which I'm not) I found this about the Vox AC30 - probably the most famous 'Class A' (described) amp on the planet:

http://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/is-the-vox-ac-30-really-class-a

ICBM · August 2014

The point is that Class A *is* a strict technical definition and hence any amp which doesn't comply with it is not "Class A". Unfortunately the term has been misapplied and misused for so long now that some people do think it's OK to call a Class AB amp "Class A".

They do not "become Class AB when pushed into distortion" - the Class definition *only* applies to undistorted sounds. The AC30 and others don't even qualify on that score - they reach the "Class AB" region before they distort, and hence by definition are not Class A, since as correctly stated in the Guitar Player article, Class A requires full waveform conduction at maximum power output before distortion.

It's all just a load of marketing BS really. The reason different amps sound different is due to things like the type of bias, the presence or otherwise of NFB, the difference between single-ended and push-pull… all these things matter. Whether the amp is actually Class A or simply Class AB running close to Class A is irrelevant.

But the term "Class A" sounds as if it should be better than "Class AB" which sounds as if it's some sort of compromise between "first rate" and "second rate" - especially when written incorrectly as "Class A/B".

RichValentine · August 2014

I might be biased but my Hiwatt Studio/Stage is for sale with cab

ChrisMusic · August 2014

Thanks all for the recent suggestions.

What is it about the classic Blackface cleans ? There is there something special about the circuit topology that just adds sparkle, spank and shimmer. Can a pedal really give that added magic to a harder and more sterile clean tone from a Marshall type architecture ?

I'm not too sure about the Laney @Voxman, but it's worth watching the video just to see all the faces pulled by Christophe Godin, demon player and a bit bonkers too. Great taste in guitars, even if he is colour blind.

I hadn't even thought about the Boss Fender Deluxe Reverb pedal, thanks for the pointer ICBM.

Hey @RichValentine, thanks for making me aware of that, nothing bad about a shameless plug.

I have lots to consider before making any decision, and I may have already said this discussion is primarily about fact finding, I am not in a hurry to buy right now, so keep the ideas flowing.

I am enjoying the research and looking forward to checking out a few amps in the flesh (subtle Dr Who reference) ~ or maybe in the tolex is more applicable.

Kebabkid · August 2014

ChrisMusic said:
Can a pedal really give that added magic to a harder and more sterile clean tone from a Marshall type architecture ? Yes @ChrisMusic- rewind to what I said earlier about the Catalinbread 5F6 - it's a class act and better IMHO than the Fender Deluxe Pedal. Just try one and see for yourself as it does what you're describing but remember to keep the gain low. It Otherwise, get yourself a HRD III or DRRI

ChrisMusic · August 2014

Hey there @Kebabkid, I get the feeling that one of those will be on my "to buy" list. The list is an item so rare and so short (!) that it is carefully guarded by the Andrex puppy !

I didn't even know about this pedal until your thread on it, so thanks for taking the plunge.

I am still trying to get my head around pedals and their interaction with amps. My base premise is that there is a fundamental tone to a guitar, a fundamental tone to an amp, and a fundamental tone to the speakers and cab, and that the results of any pedal must be coloured by that, and therefore the results dependant on it, and the context they are operating in.

That was why I posted the discussion "... takes pedals well... ~ what does that mean ?." recently, to try and get my head around this. To gain a frame of reference about the variables involved, to help understanding and predicting the results of different set-ups. Not least to get a handle on what it is that makes the sonic magic I associate with some gear and artists. (The sonic magic in this instance is that shimmer (etc) characteristic of a clean Fender Black/Silver Face, but there is so much more I have to learn about.)

It is so good that there are so many knowledgeable and generous people on here, who are happy to share and help. I am learning so much, and so quickly, that I said to my good lady only the other day, that I consider my time on here to be like a good fun apprenticeship. (Well, that's my excuse for spending far more time here than is healthy !)

There is a massive amount that has stayed the same since I was in the music business, but there is also so very much that has changed too, and so very much that has been forgotten or clouded by the mists of time. It really is such a bonus to have great people help to clear the waters.

ChrisMusic · August 2014

Thanks for reminding me aout the Machette @paulmapp8306. I knew I had seen something about that amp, but could I remember where, or the name of it ? Another one for the Andrex puppy to guard on my short (!) list

Kebabkid · August 2014

Indeed @ChrisMusic and the forum is helpful. However, even with me and others talking from experience of a product, if you can try before you buy, your ears will tell you if it's right for you.
Do you have any shops near to you that stock any of the stuff mentioned? Guitar Guitar stock the 5F6 pedal and I think they have a 7 day returns policy (check that).
All the best and keep us posted on your progress and what you settle on

ChrisMusic · August 2014

Big thanks to ICBM for recommending the Mesa Blue Angel.

I know you have already discussed at some length valve characteristic, impedance and biasing characteristics in my other recent discussion "SO ~ what gives an AMP it's character or tone ???".

You are a bad, bad man ICBM, the Blue Angel sounds fantastic, even the one with knackered pots in an old for sale YT video, and it has "progressive linkage". That lead me onto looking at the Mesa Road King, wow. But heavy and expensive, but oh so nice.

Flexibility, complexity, great engineering; a very heady mix.

Blue Angel on the short list too, me-thinks.

Please talk me out of the insanity that is the Road King.

ChrisMusic · August 2014

Thanks for your input @ToneControl. That is an interesting idea with the Ceriatone amps. I appreciate the other information too.

I would be quite fun to build something. I am not adverse to getting down and dirty with a soldering iron and some cutters.

I used to be quite involved in design and manufacture of various electronic and pro audio gear over the years. But never with valve equipment.

The nearest I've come to that was getting blown across the room as a naive kid, working on my old Lancaster bomber transceiver. Both the transceiver and my heart still worked afterwards. Volts hurt, luckily I am here to tell the tale. Big lesson learned that day. And I thought it was only cats who have nine lives.

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Amp recommendations ~ something for shimmering Fender type cleans

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