Tried this digital lark…..

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  • kennedydream1980kennedydream1980 Frets: 1221
    edited September 2024
    Nerine said:
    A good halfway house is a valve amp and a Suhr Reactive Load IR. 

    The Opus I had previously sounded guff in comparison. 

    Anyway, after having two Fractal FM9’s and gigging one in various iterations for over a year, I now have a 20w Jubilee and aforementioned Suhr RLIR and my live sound both through my cab and the PA is far better. 

    And it took not even 1 gig to get there. I plugged everything in, selected bank 3, cab 4 and went to FOH. I made a small low mid cut on the desk and that was it. Sounds stellar. Huge. Massive. 

    The Fractal in comparison just doesn’t have the bounce when using it live and it took me about 10 gigs to get it sounding how I wanted it to. Then I daren’t really alter it that much even though it was tempting to keep tweaking it. 

    Then the options the unit provides become redundant really… 

    Conversely, you always wonder whether there is another amp or cab combination in it that is like some kinda secret magic bullet for tonal nirvana. So you keep trawling through the (far too) many options. Then you compare your new preset to your old one and it sounds basically the same or a bit worse. 

    It’s soooo overlooked that how a guitar should sound to you is deeply ingrained in you, and you will largely always try to dial in something pretty similar regardless of the (virtual) equipment used. 

    Not only that, switch the amp model between the Friedmans, Bogners, Marshalls, Soldanos etc in your kitchen sink preset (keeping the cab and pedals the same) and they all basically sound the same once you’ve tweaked a bit. 

    Makes the whole thing a bit pointless in my view. You’re better off with one amp that works for you and just using the shit out of it. 

    I thought I was too hasty getting rid of my first FM9, hence buying another. I couldn’t get rid of the second one quick enough. They’re good. But not THAT good because invariably they cause more problems than they solve. 

    Valve amp FTW. 


    Having tried all the big hitters (minus the Quad Cortex) in the modelling world, I've come to the same conclusion as you @Nerine

    For me a hybrid setup is the way to go. A valve front end and digital back end work best for me. My current squeeze is a Blackstar HT50 MKIII which has the cab rig direct out on it. I can run it direct at home without a speaker load (It has a reactive load box built in). You get all the loveliness and dynamics of valves with all the convenience and consistency of digital (IR's / Cab Sim).
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  • FarleyUKFarleyUK Frets: 2577
    I've also tried all the digital options, and currently have 3 valve amps (with another 2 on order...), and for me, the digital stuff provides unmatched flexibility. being in a covers band, I need options on my sound, and just using a single valve amp wouldn't get me there IMO (even with my Torpedo Captor X or Boss TAE).

    I do miss playing through a valve amp though, so may have to figure out the 4CM method with one of my amps....
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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 5112
    When I was young, valve amps and tranny amps were all there was. My first modelling amp was a Line 6 Flextone II Plus, with a 1x12 extn cab and floor controller.  It was basically a Line 6 Pod in an amp. Very versatile a decent sounding but could struggle to punch through the mix and it just didn't feel very valve like.

    So I bought a blue series Vox Valvetronix 2x12 AD120VTX with the VC12 floor controller, and soon after got the AD212 extn cab. I put a 7 band EQ in the fx loop and later added a BBE Sonic Stomp Maximiser and a BBE Boosta Grand for clean volume boost.  It was a game changer. Phenomenal versatility, very loud, and sounded and felt like a valve amp. It was the best amp gigging rig I've ever had, but I had to retire it from gigging over 10 years ago because the weight and set up and pack away just got too much for me.

    So I switched to the Valvetronix Tonelab SE and LE that are still my main gigging rigs. I use them either straight through FOH or through my Headrush FRFR 108 powered speakers that only weigh 19bs each. The AD120VTX is just under 60lbs on its own.

    Last year I picked up a mint Blue 1x12 Valvetronix AD60VT that I've upgraded with a neodymium Celestion G12 Century Vintage. It's way more manageable size and weight wise than it's big brother and nearly as loud. It just gives me the option to gig with it if I fancied. 
    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • NerineNerine Frets: 2672
    FarleyUK said:
    being in a covers band, I need options on my sound, and just using a single valve amp wouldn't get me there IMO 
    This is a viewpoint I see a lot. I don’t agree with it. I think if you play the parts correctly, and have a ballpark sound - I.e. use the controls on your guitar and perhaps kick in a pedal here and there, I don’t think having one amp to cover a wide variety of songs is an issue at all. 

    I think it’s more jarring having different sounds for each song, personally. There’s also more opportunity for it to upset the band mix. 

    Live, I tend to think that overdrive is overdrive is overdrive. I’m not worried about the exact sound. Appropriate gain range and pickup choice, sure. That’s all achievable with the guitar though. 


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  • BradBrad Frets: 725
    edited September 2024
    Nerine said:
    FarleyUK said:
    being in a covers band, I need options on my sound, and just using a single valve amp wouldn't get me there IMO 
    This is a viewpoint I see a lot. I don’t agree with it. I think if you play the parts correctly, and have a ballpark sound - I.e. use the controls on your guitar and perhaps kick in a pedal here and there, I don’t think having one amp to cover a wide variety of songs is an issue at all. 

    I think it’s more jarring having different sounds for each song, personally. There’s also more opportunity for it to upset the band mix. 

    Live, I tend to think that overdrive is overdrive is overdrive. I’m not worried about the exact sound. Appropriate gain range and pickup choice, sure. That’s all achievable with the guitar though. 


    100% agree with this. For small gigs (and large for that matter!), or where stage volume needs to be kept pretty minimal or I have to unfortunately use IEMs, I just mic up my 1x12 Princeton clone. Pedalboard generally consists of wah, compressor, OD, delay and reverb (currently one of those Crazy Tube Circuits Sidekick Jr for some chorus when needed). 

    Every sound guy compliments my sound and I'm just as easy to work with as anyone with the latest digital flavour of the month toy. I play a seriously wide variety of music and no song has ever been found wanting. Need different shades of OD? Thats what the guitar's volume pot is for and as @Nerine said, gain range, type of guitar and pickup choice makes a huge contribution to the sound. 

    Each to their own and of course, a lot of people love it but I'm yet to be convinced of this digital thing.
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  • exocetexocet Frets: 2138
    FWIW, my take on the using modellers to provide multiple tones via multiple amps for different songs is that the best compromise is to keep the cab IR the same rather than change cab along with amp. This removes what can sometimes be dramatic changes in EQ response.
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  • grungebobgrungebob Frets: 3695
    edited September 2024
    My presets consist of the same amp and IR just with different reverbs, modulation and gain settings. 
    I tried downloading others preset but they all sounded shit so went back to using my own. 

    I like the idea actually of the QC nano as its limitations fit perfectly with my needs. I don’t need or use banks of presets. 

    It seems I’m happiest with a JTM45 into an Orange 4x12 set to slight crunch with a ‘63 Spring reverb tank. 
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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 5112
    Nerine said:
    FarleyUK said:
    being in a covers band, I need options on my sound, and just using a single valve amp wouldn't get me there IMO 
    This is a viewpoint I see a lot. I don’t agree with it. I think if you play the parts correctly, and have a ballpark sound - I.e. use the controls on your guitar and perhaps kick in a pedal here and there, I don’t think having one amp to cover a wide variety of songs is an issue at all. 

    I think it’s more jarring having different sounds for each song, personally. There’s also more opportunity for it to upset the band mix. 

    Live, I tend to think that overdrive is overdrive is overdrive. I’m not worried about the exact sound. Appropriate gain range and pickup choice, sure. That’s all achievable with the guitar though. 


    A key advantage of digital gear is the ability to move from one guitar tone to a completely different tone with one pedal press ie moving between preset patches without having to tap dance or tweak guitar settings. Live I want things as simple as possible so I can focus on playing and listening to and interacting with the band, hence I set up patches in song set order.

    I'm well aware that pro players can utilise non modelling gear to achieve similar with custom made pedal boards, complex effects racks, midi control, and a good sound engineer.  That's fine if you're re Joe Perry with back stage personnel to also hand you umpteen different guitars fully tuned, to match each song.  But not if you're an ordinary Joe (pun intended) playing covers in a pub band. 

    Other key advantages are size, weight, cost, speed of set up and packing away.  A lot depends on what music you're playing. Being an oldie I was brought up with using volume and tone roll off and working with a much more limited pallete of tones. But there's no way I'd want to go back to those days, especially as I no longer gig with a guitar amp.

    There are no rights or wrongs here people and views and preferences will differ which is absolutely fine. What's important for any player is simply to find the right gigging solutions that fits their needs, criteria and budget. Digital solutions have been revolutionary particularly for home and pub/club players and even for pro players.

    It's a perfectly valid approach to embrace and be open to both digital and more traditional gear.  For example, Nita Strauss does a lot of gigs with a Boss GT1000, as well as using her full more traditional rig for bigger concerts.  I'm just an amateur/semi pro player, and even I have a traditional pedal board and valve amps in addition to my digital gear. But although I like to have options, I rarely use these. 
    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • chrisj1602chrisj1602 Frets: 4312
    I love a valve amp and a few pedals. I gigged for years with a really simple set up.

    The reason I’m getting more keen on digital is the variety of sounds, but not switching between loads of amps in one gig, just as my mood and interests change. I can have Fender, Vox, Marshall, Orange sounds any time I want, captures of vintage stuff I can’t afford, or stuff that’s hard to get…eg. I’m currently using a couple of Benson Chimera captures on my Nano Cortex.

    I’m going to get a Fender FR-10 in time for my next gig, because I’ve missed having a cab behind me, but the sounds are great.
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  • NickBNickB Frets: 405
    I love a valve amp and a few pedals. I gigged for years with a really simple set up.

    The reason I’m getting more keen on digital is the variety of sounds, but not switching between loads of amps in one gig, just as my mood and interests change. I can have Fender, Vox, Marshall, Orange sounds any time I want, captures of vintage stuff I can’t afford, or stuff that’s hard to get…eg. I’m currently using a couple of Benson Chimera captures on my Nano Cortex.

    I’m going to get a Fender FR-10 in time for my next gig, because I’ve missed having a cab behind me, but the sounds are great.
    I have an FR12 that’s sitting in a corner gathering dust, not getting used as I tried the digital lark and went back to valve amps 
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  • chrisj1602chrisj1602 Frets: 4312
    NickB said:
    I love a valve amp and a few pedals. I gigged for years with a really simple set up.

    The reason I’m getting more keen on digital is the variety of sounds, but not switching between loads of amps in one gig, just as my mood and interests change. I can have Fender, Vox, Marshall, Orange sounds any time I want, captures of vintage stuff I can’t afford, or stuff that’s hard to get…eg. I’m currently using a couple of Benson Chimera captures on my Nano Cortex.

    I’m going to get a Fender FR-10 in time for my next gig, because I’ve missed having a cab behind me, but the sounds are great.
    I have an FR12 that’s sitting in a corner gathering dust, not getting used as I tried the digital lark and went back to valve amps 
    Fair enough. I can’t use a valve amp at home, which is another reason. I’d love to have multiple valve amps, it just isn’t possible for me.
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 11469

    I came across a load of older recordings recently when sorting out some drives. Over the years i've used HiWatt, Marshall, Blackstar, Kitty Hawk, Fender, Bugera and a few more amps. 

    Listening back to some Thin Lizzy tribute gigs I did I know I used a either a Fender Twin, a Marshall JPM-1 or a Blackstar HT5 but I can't actually tell now which is which on the recordings. 

    I think as long as it's a good valve amp and it's the amount of gain I like, then I pretty much sound like me no matter what I'm plugged into. Whether that's a good thing or bad I'm not sure but that seems to be the case. 
    It does have to be a valve amp though, because having an output transformer helps tame the nasty hi end overtones you get when playing more melodic chords with gain (not just root & 5 ) ... This IMO is something all the digital modellers I have tried don't get right ... there's something a bit strange in the high end that grinds me. When I gig'ed my Pod Go I ran it as hot as possible into a passive transformer dual Radial DI and this improved the high end quite a lot. If you have a modeller, try it. 

    It's funny, as you get older your ability to detect high frequencies drops off but this actually forces the brain to extract more information out the upper mid frequencies. The guitar doesn't really have anything going on much above 5K anyway, so the upper limit of your hearings frequency response isn't so applicable as it might be to other instruments.  But any nastiness in those treble overtones really bugs me. 


     
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • BeexterBeexter Frets: 657
    edited October 2024
    Danny1969 said:

    I came across a load of older recordings recently when sorting out some drives. Over the years i've used HiWatt, Marshall, Blackstar, Kitty Hawk, Fender, Bugera and a few more amps. 

    Listening back to some Thin Lizzy tribute gigs I did I know I used a either a Fender Twin, a Marshall JPM-1 or a Blackstar HT5 but I can't actually tell now which is which on the recordings. 

    I think as long as it's a good valve amp and it's the amount of gain I like, then I pretty much sound like me no matter what I'm plugged into. Whether that's a good thing or bad I'm not sure but that seems to be the case. 
    It does have to be a valve amp though, because having an output transformer helps tame the nasty hi end overtones you get when playing more melodic chords with gain (not just root & 5 ) ... This IMO is something all the digital modellers I have tried don't get right ... there's something a bit strange in the high end that grinds me. When I gig'ed my Pod Go I ran it as hot as possible into a passive transformer dual Radial DI and this improved the high end quite a lot. If you have a modeller, try it. 

    It's funny, as you get older your ability to detect high frequencies drops off but this actually forces the brain to extract more information out the upper mid frequencies. The guitar doesn't really have anything going on much above 5K anyway, so the upper limit of your hearings frequency response isn't so applicable as it might be to other instruments.  But any nastiness in those treble overtones really bugs me. 


     
    Interesting point @Danny1969 but doesn't the speaker play a major part in this?
    I'm lucky to have a few valve amps as well as an HX Stomp and a Fractal FM9. Typically, I amplify the modellers through a Fender FR-10 (FRFR) and have settled on a few IR's that work for me (York Audio in the main) and don't seem to suffer from that nasty, brittle, spiky, fizzy treble that can be problematic. If course, there's always the option of high cuts on the "cab" if needed.
    With my valve amps, however, different cab/ speaker choices have a big impact on what you hear -some combinations sound awful but the same amp into a different speaker/ cab can sound great.
    Of course, everyone has their own way of doing things but my experience has been that the modelling/ digital environment provides considerably more options to sculpt your tone. The flip side is that you also get a million and one ways to screw it up!
    All of the above is based on a live, in the room, sound and not a mic'd recording though.

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