Andertons video became an FRFR critique

TimmyO · September 13

https://youtu.be/f68pmVFNv24?si=_NdykiPm5qjQfcjL

What started as a fairly typical blindfold test vid turns in to some unfiltered opinions on FRFR - which is interesting

I did wonder whether they’d fiddle with the FR212’s onboard eq but they didn’t - probably a missed opportunity

Rockerverb sounded great though

allen · September 13

I’m surprised that there isn’t more chat about this video.

Watched it this morning and thought it would be controversial.

Reminded me of that disastrous review they did of the Mesa attenuator thing, which sounded appalling- so much so that they had to make a new video to retract their comments.

Voxman · September 14

I'd happily take on a head to head with all of those against my old tech Vox Tonelab SE or LE and my Headrush FRFR108's

NickB · September 14

I think that Pete’s point was valid. If you’re going to take a ‘make loud box’ to the gig, take a HR deluxe as it is the same size as an FR12. I came to a similar conclusion when I had a FR12.

In fact, if I remember correctly I used my POD Bean into the FX return of my Hot Rod DeVille many years ago.

EricTheWeary · September 14

I had that on. I’m sure there are people on here who have arrived at a similar conclusion - that guitar cabs sound more like guitar cabs than FRFR cabs do. Assuming that you have a cab primarily for live use then the subtleties between different IRs is going to be lost, leave all that for home/ recording use.

I think Guthrie Govan and other pros use FRFR so maybe it is just spending longer with the gear and getting better at dialling it in. Although if plugging into the back of a cab bypasses the need to spend a day tweaking EQs you have to wonder why they bother.

monquixote · September 14

EricTheWeary said:

I had that on. I’m sure there are people on here who have arrived at a similar conclusion - that guitar cabs sound more like guitar cabs than FRFR cabs do. Assuming that you have a cab primarily for live use then the subtleties between different IRs is going to be lost, leave all that for home/ recording use.
I think Guthrie Govan and other pros use FRFR so maybe it is just spending longer with the gear and getting better at dialling it in. Although if plugging into the back of a cab bypasses the need to spend a day tweaking EQs you have to wonder why they bother.

Guthrie does mad stuff like using irs of a violin and things like that though.

TimmyO · September 14

EricTheWeary said:

. Although if plugging into the back of a cab bypasses the need to spend a day tweaking EQs you have to wonder why they bother.

This is the aspect that’s me-relevant : I suspect that they could have (and many people do) adjusted the hi and low cuts in the modeller, and the eq on the FRFR, or chosen a different IR that suits the cabinet - at which point my brain would melt.

But then I see people using it on the regular and just enjoying it.

I think at a certain point it becomes what you can wrap your head around - and that that then gets turned in to disagreements about whether something does or doesn’t sound good

EricTheWeary · September 14

Trying to look at some of the weights of these things online. I'm not totally clear but a 1x12 FRFR is relatively light so as a basis for a small rig that breaks down into easily carried components that makes sense. Once you get to the 2x12s it's becoming the equivalent of taking a regular combo.

monquixote said:

EricTheWeary said:

I had that on. I’m sure there are people on here who have arrived at a similar conclusion - that guitar cabs sound more like guitar cabs than FRFR cabs do. Assuming that you have a cab primarily for live use then the subtleties between different IRs is going to be lost, leave all that for home/ recording use.
I think Guthrie Govan and other pros use FRFR so maybe it is just spending longer with the gear and getting better at dialling it in. Although if plugging into the back of a cab bypasses the need to spend a day tweaking EQs you have to wonder why they bother.

Guthrie does mad stuff like using irs of a violin and things like that though.

It's use case I guess. But as guitarists sometimes we buy into a use case we would like to have rather than the one we do. I suppose the Andertons video is saying that maybe some people have bought FRFR for gigging, jam nights or whatever and they would have been much better off with a regular guitar combo (with or without a modeller providing the front end). If you've got a week in rehearsals and a world tour then different things come into play.

Musicwolf · September 14

It very much depends upon how the audience is hearing the guitar. At home, in a rehearsal room, or in a small venue such as a pub, you are going to be hearing the sound from a cab and therefore it's probably no surprise that the 'real thing' will sound better than the emulation.

If the audience is hearing the sound of a mic'd cab into a PA or on a recording, then the difference isn't so great (probably indistinguishable to most of the audience) and so the benefits of the modeller come to the fore.

I also use my modeller to emulate acoustic tones (piezo bridge / IRs) and keyboard sounds (EH B9 and, in the past, Boss SY300), so I need an FRFR cab.

monquixote · September 14

Musicwolf said:

It very much depends upon how the audience is hearing the guitar. At home, in a rehearsal room, or in a small venue such as a pub, you are going to be hearing the sound from a cab and therefore it's probably no surprise that the 'real thing' will sound better than the emulation.

If the audience is hearing the sound of a mic'd cab into a PA or on a recording, then the difference isn't so great (probably indistinguishable to most of the audience) and so the benefits of the modeller come to the fore.

I also use my modeller to emulate acoustic tones (piezo bridge / IRs) and keyboard sounds (EH B9 and, in the past, Boss SY300), so I need an FRFR cab.

The thing is if you are using a modeller why not stick it through the PA rather than have a random bit of PA not controlled by the sound guy.

flying_pie · September 14

For me, the point of FRFR is to let you hear on stage what is going to the PA and for it to look a bit like a to real amp. It won't sound like a guitar cab because it's based on a miced up sound. The idea a so called 'FRFR cab' is like a guitar cab, and not simply a rebranded PA speaker, is a total con. It's a PA speaker make to look like a cab. End of.

I also think the 12 inch FRFRs can sound worse with too much bottom end but were no doubt made purely because guitarists are used to 12 inch speakers being the norm. The idea of a smaller speaker being better suited, and a 12; inch speaker being more like a sub, just wouldn't compute for the general market

Danny1969 · September 14

The first bit bit of the video where Pete plays through all 3 amps is a perfect example of why I still use valve amps. You can hear all the notes in the chord with the valve amp despite the gain. It's just a more musical noise to my ears. The SS Orange has some weird bleed on the gain, like a Tubescreamer into a perfectly clean amp does. The Tonemaster Pro just sounded no better really, like all modelling it's got something going on in the top end that's not quite right.

The FR12 might be light to carry but that actually works against it when it comes to producing convincing low end guitar frequencies. It's basically Newtons 3rd law. The box is is vibrating and moves in opposite reaction to the speaker cone. Heavier speaker cabinets don't do that as easily. So they sound better, more solid in the low end.

Roland · September 14

Musicwolf said: I also use my modeller to emulate acoustic tones (piezo bridge / IRs) and keyboard sounds (EH B9 and, in the past, Boss SY300), so I need an FRFR cab.

That’s my use case too. My acoustic guitar simulation needs that top end. Then I cut the top end for the electric sound.

monquixote said: The thing is if you are using a modeller why not stick it through the PA rather than have a random bit of PA not controlled by the sound guy.

For small gigs I might not put the guitar through the PA.
For larger gigs, without IEMs, I get control of how much guitar I hear.
To make the guitar lively, responding to volume.

Roland · September 14

Here’s an alternative take on the comparison which eliminates the speaker:

https://youtu.be/CtFDAgpYsac

willo · September 14

I use my modeller to emulate acoustic and pad sounds where I need it. Plus FR gives me constituency with FOH and the bands IEMs. And gig to gig consistency if it's a small stage where I go direct to FOH

Overall the biggest mystery is why modeller users are constantly supposed to justify their choices in the modelling forum.

TimmyO · September 14

Dude, you’ve imagined that.

Dave8 · September 14

willo said:

I use my modeller to emulate acoustic and pad sounds where I need it. Plus FR gives me constituency with FOH and the bands IEMs. And gig to gig consistency if it's a small stage where I go direct to FOH

please provide justification for this

flying_pie · September 14

From now on can we agree on the following?:

1. Amps can sound good in the right hands and bad in the wrong ones. Modellers can model preamps very well and you'll never know one from the other if you're listening to a band in a noisy pub after a few pints

2. Modellers into a PA/FRFR don't sound the same as an unmiced amp in a room (to us guitarists, that is, not prosecco dosed mums in the pub who just want to sing along to Living On A Prayer)

3. An amp can't go through a PA without a mic or emulated out/load box & IR so comparing the amp sound from the speaker in a small room to a PA ready DI setup which could fill the O2 is a bit daft

4. There's nothing magical about FRFR cabs - they are simply PA speakers that look a bit better on stage

5. Either you sound good or you don't. These days almost all the gear available can help you sound good enough if you use it properly. And any sound tech can ruin your carefully crafted sound so it doesn't matter

flying_pie · September 14

@Roland @Musicwolf out of interest what do you use for your acoustic emulation?

Musicwolf · September 14

monquixote said:

Musicwolf said:

It very much depends upon how the audience is hearing the guitar. At home, in a rehearsal room, or in a small venue such as a pub, you are going to be hearing the sound from a cab and therefore it's probably no surprise that the 'real thing' will sound better than the emulation.

If the audience is hearing the sound of a mic'd cab into a PA or on a recording, then the difference isn't so great (probably indistinguishable to most of the audience) and so the benefits of the modeller come to the fore.

I also use my modeller to emulate acoustic tones (piezo bridge / IRs) and keyboard sounds (EH B9 and, in the past, Boss SY300), so I need an FRFR cab.

The thing is if you are using a modeller why not stick it through the PA rather than have a random bit of PA not controlled by the sound guy.

In two of my three bands that's exactly what I do. Modeller > desk > FoH then either a wedge monitor or in-ears.

For my third band, which has only just started up, we're in a rehearsal room with a crappy PA, so I bring along a small FRFR cab (and Alto TS210) for my guitar. Normally I mount it on a stand, which sounds good, but last week I tried it on the floor and the sound was poor.

I had been looking at a Fender FR10 specifically for this third band since, when do gig, I'm planning to let the singer bring his vocal only PA. I'm not so sure that it's going to give me anything better than the Alto though.

Musicwolf · September 14

flying_pie said:

@Roland @Musicwolf out of interest what do you use for your acoustic emulation?

3 Sigma IR (I think that I'm using a Martin D18).

I have a couple of piezo equipped electrics (PRS SE Semi-Hollow and Hollow-Body) where I can send the magnetic pickups and piezo to different paths. If the guitar is piezo equipped then it's just IR plus comp / eq / reverb etc.

Where I'm using a non-piezo guitar then I might at an acoustic sim before the IR (both the Helix and the Kemper have these in the EQ folders). With the Helix you can just drop the IR in as a block, for the Kemper I think that I needed to do some form of conversion then use it to replace the cab block.

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Andertons video became an FRFR critique

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