Alt Picking and rock/metal solo-ing advice needed

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  • ChrisMusicChrisMusic Frets: 1133
    edited November 2013
    Cheers Mike, yes I wouldn't do 5min straight off, no worries.

    Hey TPD, good call, the JTC stuff comes with good tab and backing tracks, so well worth Jetfire checking their catalogue, something will hit the mark.  No affiliation, but they are really nice guys to deal with, and supportive of their artists.
    Marco Sfogli is amazing IMO, but the they pretty much all are, and Mika Tyyska is just barking (great to see someone with an individual voice).

    They do have a sale on sometimes, so if you like the format, and what's not to like, then sign up for their emails.
    Just get a tight grip on what you are after or the cheap(er) prices can get expensive.  Takes a bit of waiting around, but there are some good packages and good singles tracks, sometimes free ones too.  Get something to work on now(ish) and take advantage of the sale later (whenever that is).

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    When I started playing again I got a few of their tracks, sat down full of confidence, easy enough I thought, might take a bit of time to get it up to speed, boy did my fingers give me a surprise ! , that is why I am doing all the exercises etc now.  Couldn't believe how much I've lost or forgotten, BIG wake up that was, very humbling.

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  • mike_lmike_l Frets: 5700
    The intro to Maiden's Wasted years is a brilliant way to practise alt. picking

    Ringleader of the Cambridge cartel, pedal champ and king of the dirt boxes (down to 21) 

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  • mike_lmike_l Frets: 5700
    viz said:
    A great little Vai finger-twister is the old:
    6th string: 5,7
    5th string: 7,5
    4th string: 5,7
    3rd string: 7,5
    2nd string: 5,7
    1st string: 7,5

    And then:

    1st string 6,8
    2nd string: 8,6
    3rd string: 6,8

    Etc
    Am i correct in saying when you go from the 7/5 to the 8/6 frets you go from using fingers 1/3 to 2/4?

    Ringleader of the Cambridge cartel, pedal champ and king of the dirt boxes (down to 21) 

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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    edited November 2013
    You could do though actually vai suggests you pick a finger-couple and stick with it throughout. (Like 1st and 3rd; or 3rd and 4th, or whatever takes your fancy). Whatever's tricky for you basically. His mantra is - practise whatever you find difficult.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • mike_lmike_l Frets: 5700
    viz said:
    His mantra is - practise whatever you find difficult.

    That'll be everything then....

    Ringleader of the Cambridge cartel, pedal champ and king of the dirt boxes (down to 21) 

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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    Lol again :)
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • mike_l said:
    viz said:  His mantra is - practise whatever you find difficult.
    That'll be everything then....
    This ^^^

    I do, and it is...  
    ;)

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  • SambostarSambostar Frets: 8745

    Only bit of advice I'II throw in is when speed picking, move your picking forearm to go up and down the strings and keep your thumb straight and locked into the side of your finger.  I kind of prefer to hold the pick down at the joint of my thumb.  If you can move your picking thumb and finger easily with your left hand, then it will move when you pick strings and you will miss.  Also I like to have my hand inline with my wrist, that way the pick is at an angle to the strings and I can make minimal movement with my wrist.

    When moving up or down a string from a downpick, always practice picking an up pick on the next string, keep everything alternate, it's smoother.

    If you can do fast legato, the battle is with your picking hand.  Practice 3 notes per string on the open strings or barred and remember to practice rhythmically with good timings and eveness.  Alot of it is just relaxing mentally, making minimal movemet with your wrist and making all the adjustments with up or down forearm movement.

    Usually you'll have a weakness, changing from three picks to two on the next string to three on the next, or simply changing from the D to the G string going up.  Whatever they are in a scale pattern, concentrate on them and start slow and repeat slow until your muscles remember automatically and try not to look at either of your hands or move your mouth.

    Given that there are 7 degrees of a scale, until  you get back to the root note again, an octave higher, practice scale patterns in groups of notes such as (4 note groupings) 3-1-2-3, 4-2-3-4, 5-3-4-5, 6-4-5-6   and 1-2-3-4, 2-3-4-5,-3-4-5-6 which is the same pattern in a different sequence.

    ..and coming back down 6-1-7-6, 5-7-6-5, 4-6-5-4  and 1-7-6-5, 7,6,5,4, 6,5,4,2 etc.

    Or, again descending try this in groups of eight notes 1-7-6-5-4-3-4-5, 6-5-4-3-2-1-2-3, 5-4-3-2-1-7-1-2 etc  Also try that pattern going up.

    You can practice these patterns or similar patterns on any scale, major/minor/harmonic minor etc. on a single string with fast postion changes, two strings up and down the neck or all the string in any position.  The point is it makes it less frustrating, more fun and teaches you more in the process than straight scales would.

    Ideally eventually you get to a stage where you can play any scale or pattern or scale pattern up or down the neck a few octaves, where ever you are on the neck...

     

    Has anybody checked out Matt Raines's lessons on Youtube..AHHHHH.  Makes me feel the hero in that like Kick Ass movie on box last night - He is a real guitar player, I am just an idiot with a bunch of guitars. lol.

    Backdoor Children Of The Sock
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  • SambostarSambostar Frets: 8745

    Only bit of advice I'II throw in is when speed picking, move your picking forearm to go up and down the strings and keep your thumb straight and locked into the side of your finger.  I kind of prefer to hold the pick down at the joint of my thumb.  If you can move your picking thumb and finger easily with your left hand, then it will move when you pick strings and you will miss.  Also I like to have my hand inline with my wrist, that way the pick is at an angle to the strings and I can make minimal movement with my wrist.

    When moving up or down a string from a downpick, always practice picking an up pick on the next string, keep everything alternate, it's smoother.

    If you can do fast legato, the battle is with your picking hand.  Practice 3 notes per string on the open strings or barred and remember to practice rhythmically with good timings and eveness.  Alot of it is just relaxing mentally, making minimal movemet with your wrist and making all the adjustments with up or down forearm movement.

    Usually you'll have a weakness, changing from three picks to two on the next string to three on the next, or simply changing from the D to the G string going up.  Whatever they are in a scale pattern, concentrate on them and start slow and repeat slow until your muscles remember automatically and try not to look at either of your hands or move your mouth.

    Given that there are 7 degrees of a scale, until  you get back to the root note again, an octave higher, practice scale patterns in groups of notes such as (4 note groupings) 3-1-2-3, 4-2-3-4, 5-3-4-5, 6-4-5-6   and 1-2-3-4, 2-3-4-5,-3-4-5-6 which is the same pattern in a different sequence.

    ..and coming back down 6-1-7-6, 5-7-6-5, 4-6-5-4  and 1-7-6-5, 7,6,5,4, 6,5,4,2 etc.

    Or, again descending try this in groups of eight notes 1-7-6-5-4-3-4-5, 6-5-4-3-2-1-2-3, 5-4-3-2-1-7-1-2 etc  Also try that pattern going up.

    You can practice these patterns or similar patterns on any scale, major/minor/harmonic minor etc. on a single string with fast postion changes, two strings up and down the neck or all the string in any position.  The point is it makes it less frustrating, more fun and teaches you more in the process than straight scales would.

    Ideally eventually you get to a stage where you can play any scale or pattern or scale pattern up or down the neck a few octaves, where ever you are on the neck...

     

    Has anybody checked out Matt Raines's lessons on Youtube..AHHHHH.  Makes me feel the hero in that like Kick Ass movie on box last night - He is a real guitar player, I am just an idiot with a bunch of guitars. lol.

    Backdoor Children Of The Sock
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  • SambostarSambostar Frets: 8745

    OK....You asked.....this is how I did it (Still improving it) from my experience.

    IT'S HOW YOU HOLD THE PICK:

    Right, when you play that pentatonic blues thing with a few bits of shitty legato, ascending or descending thrown in, up or down, you move your wrist kind of freely, at an angle to your forearm, so the pick is more in line with the strings because you are aiming for pick attack and pinch, rather than tonal clarity and eveness.  Well this doesn't work for picking fast, especially not when learning.

    What I learnt to do is hold the pick between the side of my finger, resting against the knuckle joint of my thumb.  Yeah that far down!  Not that far down, the knuckle, not the base of my thumb fool!  OK, try that and try moving your thumb or finger about rigerously with your left hand, it doesn't move right?  Cause it's a tight little supportive picking box.  Now hold the pick as you would normally, further out toward the tip of your thumb, past the joint - Yep it moves all over the place, as you thumb and index finger joints move.  If it moves that easily, what do you think is gonna happen when you are playing at 1000 miles an hour?  You will miss strings, that is what will happen.

    Right, next, you want to straighten you wrist, so it is straight and about inline with your forearm.  You want to use your forearm to navigate up and down the strings, not your wrist,  you do not want that flailing about or you will miss.

    With your wrist at this angle the pick will be angled on the strings and offer up less resistance, you just want a bit of it sticking out and make tiny shaking movements with your wrist to pick the strings.  Remember to use your forearm to go up and down the strings.  Do not start bending your thumb about, you will only miss again.  Tiny wrist movements.

    RELAX:

    Take a shit, have a wank, grab some sex with your bitch or whatever, avoid the coffee and breath deeply.

    Whenever you play, try and play as strictly alternate picking as you can.  Avoid all this hybrid bollocks.  Alternate is the best for control and fluidity and speed.  Naturally you might find that you have a tendency to go from a downpick to another downpick when changing strings whilst ascending in triplets.  This is hybrid picking.  You might want to practice (B) v3-^5-v7 (E) ^3 (B) v7-^5-v3-^5-v7 (E) ^3 (B) v7-^5-v3 again and again until you are getting those uppicks right on the E string.  Then try this on all strings, or use a simpler pattern if you like, but with the same amount of notes on each string. 

    You don't really need a metronome so long as you try and hear the pulse of the notes, 1,2,3,4 or or 1,2,3, 1,2,3,4,5,6 etc.  Stay tuned to that pulse and practice it at the speed you can manage so each note comes out even and rings clear.  Whenever you practice start real slow and build it up, always keeping the timing of the notes and intervals correct.  Do not attempt to outperform your abilities.  This is especially important because in playing slowly, you build up muscle memory which will not develop if you try and cheat

    Practice the bits you are crap at.  For example if you have trouble going from 3 notes on the D string to 2 on the G to 3 on the B and it is letting down an otherwise flawless routine, then just practice that bit, don't waste time doing the whole exercise or scale if that is the weak point.  Or perhaps the 3 note - 4 note - 3 note per string is difficult, for example in harmonic minor patterns and scales.

    Another weakness, besides changing strings, might be changing positions fast and cleanly.  For example you can play a pentatonic lick with two picks (Down/Up) on the high E and one pick (Down) on the B, all repeated, again and again at hyperspeed, but you can't play a descending two string malmsteenb dimished phgrian harmonic minor arpegio or whatever.  Well just practice picking two notes on the same string for the position changes, rather than the whole three note arpegio, until you have them nailed cleanly.  Interestly such a riff will have you hybrid/sweep picking as you have to play both the B and the E with a downpick as you cannot alternate...this is the beginnings of sweep picking....but anyway.

    If you are crap at everything, just start practicing.

     

    Backdoor Children Of The Sock
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  • SambostarSambostar Frets: 8745

    SCALES AND PATTERNS:

    As well as playing little two string picking riffs and small arpegios as mentioned above (Make your own ones up to fit your weaknesses) and practicing working them evenly and cleanly, practicing scales in terms of patterns makes crafting your co ordination a lot more sensical and motivating than straight scales. Much the same way as the Maiden intro mentioned above probably does.

    So you know that a scale has 7 intervals then yeah? and then on the 8th you are back to the (1st) root note again, an octave lower or higher right?

    OK, so practice an ascending pattern (Say in C major) starting on a E at the 12th fret on the low E string with these intervals:

    3-1-2-3, 4-2-3-4, 5-3-4-5, 6-4-5-6, 7,5-6-7, 1-6-7-1, 2-7-1-2, 3-1-2-3.....etc.

    You can also just play 1,2,3,4, 2,3,4,5, 3,4,5,6 etc, it's the same pattern but the groups of notes have been shifted about.

    Descending you can do the same thing (Eg. In C Major starting on the 10th fret of the B string)

    6-1-7-6, 5,7-6-5, 4-6-5-4 etc. Or 1-7-6-5, 7-6-5-4, 6-5-4-3,

    So, the beauty of these patterns is that you can apply these basic patterns to anything, you can practice them ALL on one string (Low or high) all the way up or down the board, or from any position on the fretboard across all the strings to practice your picking.

    Apply the pattern to a Harmonic minor scale and you sound like Malmsteen or have the descending part in the Vai/Paggini Crossroads movie. They are nice because they have a pulse and sound musical as opposed to straight up and down scales which can sound kind of meaningless and often don't have a pulse.

    If you want to get more adventurous do a eight note descending pattern:

    1-7-6-5-4-3-4-5, 7-6-5-4-3-2-3-4, 6-5-4-3-2-1-2-3, 5-4-3-2-1-7-1-2, etc.

    FINGERINGS:

    To make it easier on yourself play scales in positions that are easy to recognise and are familiar to you to start with, although ideally, you want to be able to pick up a scale anyway on the board in a single position, this is why playing on one or two strings helps as it helps you to remember the fret spaces.

    So for a 3 octave C major you might want to start with (E) 8-10-12, (A) 8-10-12, (D) 9-10-12, (G) 9-10-12, (B) 10-12-13.

    When doing a descending pattern, I would slide down to get into position using my first finger (In the scale above on the G string from 10-9) and doing an ascending pattern where necessary, eg harmonic minor, I would use my third or pinky finger to slide up with to get into position for the next string.

    For a four octave A harmonic minor scale I would start out with (E) 5-7-8 (A) 5-7-8 (D) 6-7-9-10 (G) 7-9-10 (B) 9-10-12-13 (E) 10-12-13-16-(17)

    Basically playing on one string teaches you longitudinal fret interval recognition. Playing up the strings teaches you how to navigate to be able to easily repeat the thing an octave higher and alot of fast picking stuff is repeated up the octaves, or skips between them.

    Finally have a go at this, it's a repeated malmsteen variation of the scale pattern outlined above in D harmonic minor.

    E---15-18-17-15--13-17-15-13--15-18-17-15--12-15-13-12--13-17-15-13--10-13-12-10--12-15-13-12--9-12-10-9--10

    And this is a killer:

    E---18-17-18-15--17-15-17-13--15-13-15-12--13-12-13-10--12-10-12-9-

    You can ascend with these as well ^

    I am playng this pattern I made up at the moment, it's in C major and just repeats throughout the positions going down the neck, starting in the eighth position ,moving down to the seventh, then the fifth (E 5,7,8, B 5,7,8), the third (E 3-5-7, B 3-5-7) and then the first (E 1-3-5, B 2-3-5) and then moving back up again. It's simple but it's building my strength a bit.

    A------------------8---------8-10----8-10-12-10-8-----------------------7------7-8----7-8-10-8-7

    E---12-8-10-12---10-12-------12------------------12------10-7-8-10--8-10----10---------------10...etc

    Good luck.

    Backdoor Children Of The Sock
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  • SambostarSambostar Frets: 8745

    You see, the problem with picking fast, is that you need to know long passages to actually pick.  Ascending triplet scales 1-2-3 patterns soon become boring.  So basic fretboard navigation becomes essentially without moving your mouth or looking at what you are doing unless you think inside the box and make recombinations of notes.

    Whatever your pattern, no matter how random or bluesy or whatever, Just repeat it up an octave and then another and then another and pick the lot and do the same coming down to begin with.

     

    Backdoor Children Of The Sock
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  • SambostarSambostar Frets: 8745
    Also practicing just a straight pentatonic, 5-8, 5-7, 5-7, 5-7, 5-8, 5-8 up and down, fast as you can will calibrate your forearm movement.  I mean, get it as fast as you can do a trill with your first and third fingers.
    Backdoor Children Of The Sock
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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    I'm pretty sure that's the opposite of what Al di Meola does - not saying it's wrong, just interesting.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • SambostarSambostar Frets: 8745

    Who is Al di Meola?  You mean holding the pick thing and wrist action?

    I watched him and he does straighten up his arm more to the vertical and align his wrist angle and angle the pick and he does reign in the wrist swing for very fast continous stuff. It's deceptive as most of his other stuff is half legato or at a slower melody pace, with an emphasis on the different attack of the note and accents.

    Course it varies, Zakk wylde is like one extreme and there are others, but by and large, it's a general rule to make it easier.

    Marty Friedman being the exception, and these speed freak lecturers who pick by moving their thumbs about:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSaTAGsIBEI

    I think the key to holding the pick this way is to be able to change strings fluently at speed easily.  Which makes sense because when I fly pick on one string I do the opposite and bend my wrist right over to get a really loud continous stream.

     

    Marty

    Backdoor Children Of The Sock
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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    I was thinking about what he says about his rolling wrist - can't find it right now, but check 4:25 - i know that's strumming but he advocates a similar technique for his machine gun picking.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • mike_lmike_l Frets: 5700
    @Jetfire ; Adrian Smith's solo from Maidens The Wicker Man would be good for you to learn.

    Ringleader of the Cambridge cartel, pedal champ and king of the dirt boxes (down to 21) 

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  • SambostarSambostar Frets: 8745

    Yeah, like I said when fly picking I do a similar thing.

    Fair enough but if he is advocating that technique for fast picking all up and down the strings, then that is bull,  I skimmed four or five of his performances and he definitely does the straighten wrist inline with arm and shake wrist thing for long string changing passages, but if by machine gun picking you mean fly picking on one string, that makes sense.  Obviously his arm ain't going to be nearer vertical sitting down with a classical, but his wrist goes in line with his forearm and he shake his wrists with little movements.

    This at 2.48:


    image

    Backdoor Children Of The Sock
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  • SambostarSambostar Frets: 8745

    Sorry This at 2:48:  I see no flappy wrist actions just a small and rapid shakey flutter..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cadbYIzhqQ&list=RDBcsVOQ82wLA

    Backdoor Children Of The Sock
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  • SambostarSambostar Frets: 8745
    Sorry if I sound like a Twat, I am one a bit, but this is the technique I was basically trying to explain ^.
    Backdoor Children Of The Sock
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