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Real Gibson or Chinese replica ~ ~ ~ how do you tell ???

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  • JookyChapJookyChap Frets: 4234

    If the Chinese go that last mile and get all the details right including a much larger range of serial numbers its going to cause paranoia when buying any Gibson.

    Gibson will be happy then, as to be sure you'll need to buy them new.. </conspiracy>

    It will happen though, same as with the Japanese guitars before them, everybody laughed at them and 'knew they would never be as good as the real thing', and then they were.

    Out of interest, are there many Chinese fake Rickies around? I know (don't I know) they protect their brand to the max, but it obviously wouldn't worry the Chinese at the moment, but I don't think I've ever come across any. If not is it because they are too small a market or is it because Ricky don't have any variants made out there already..?

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    edited December 2013
    The headstock is far too straight and narrow... almost Melody Maker shaped.
    Actually most of that is the angle of the photos - it's closer to a real one in reality if you hold it up straight. Still a little narrower, but not much.

    Bogwhoppit said:
    ICBM said:
    It's also too light, in my opinion - 7lbs 3.5oz
     

    Many of the chambered Les Pauls only weight around that. The one I picked up was just a shade over 7Ibs, and a friends 2007 Standard weighs just under 7Ibs.

    I'm almost certain this one is just solid lightweight wood - you can actually feel it in the neck, it has a very odd "eggshell around cotton wool" feel to it because the finish is rock-hard, but the neck feels insubstantial within it... you can tell when it's vibrating as you play.

    Those things are only going to show up if you're familiar with what a real one feels and sounds like in your hands though. My guess is that this is not the main target market for these.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • In fairness, people go nuts for a stupid lightweight body these days. Gibson needs to find the supplier the chibbo factory uses!

    The only rickenbacker copies I've seen are rockinbetters... I tried two, one was awful, the other was really fantastic.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    In fairness, people go nuts for a stupid lightweight body these days. Gibson needs to find the supplier the chibbo factory uses!
    I have no idea why - this guitar does actually sound "good", but it does not sound anything like a proper Les Paul, even acoustically.


    The only rickenbacker copies I've seen are rockinbetters... I tried two, one was awful, the other was really fantastic.
    I've only ever played the shit ones. I did once have the loan a 1970s Shaftesbury 4001 copy which was quite good though.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • jd0272jd0272 Frets: 3867
    The experience I've had of people who buy these cheapies (relatively) is I've not come across anyone who's Gibsonised them to sell on. Obviously there's loads of folk who have that intention. I've found it's lads who can't afford, or don't want to spend the outlay, on a real Gibby, and want something 'close enough' so it looks the part for a gig, compensating by upgrading the pickups, hardware, and set up to make them a bit more bearable.

    You'd get away with that one at a gig.
    "You do all the 'widdly widdly' bits, and just leave the hard stuff to me."
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    jd0272 said:
    I've found it's lads who ... don't want to spend the outlay, on a real Gibby, and want something 'close enough' so it looks the part for a gig, compensating by upgrading the pickups, hardware, and set up to make them a bit more bearable.

    You'd get away with that one at a gig.
    Definitely - and that's what its owner wants to do with it. I trust he'd never try to sell it as anything other than a fake, but it's impossible to predict what future owners will do if he does part with it, hence why I branded it inside as he agreed.

    I didn't take any pics of the innards, but it's actually further away from a real Gibson than you might expect there - much cruder and obviously cheap. But you'd still need to have seen inside a real one to be sure of that.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • ICBM said:
    In fairness, people go nuts for a stupid lightweight body these days. Gibson needs to find the supplier the chibbo factory uses!
    I have no idea why - this guitar does actually sound "good", but it does not sound anything like a proper Les Paul, even acoustically.


    The only rickenbacker copies I've seen are rockinbetters... I tried two, one was awful, the other was really fantastic.
    I've only ever played the shit ones. I did once have the loan a 1970s Shaftesbury 4001 copy which was quite good though.
    Totally agree on the weight thing.  I don't mind a light strat, but LP's need to be heavy for that 'dead' sustain - it 'thunks' rather than 'plings'.  But these days, everyone wants light because... Rarer?  No idea.  

    My jazzmaster has a heavy body - well, heavy ish.  One piece swamp ash, and definitely body heavy, but I don't think it sounds bad at all.  Actually, it's one of the best 'vintage pickup' type guitars I've heard really.  If i can ever be bothered to make it play as nice as it sounds...
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  • JookyChap said:
    It will happen though, same as with the Japanese guitars before them, everybody laughed at them and 'knew they would never be as good as the real thing', and then they were.
    Except they overwhelmingly weren't/aren't where Gibson Les Paul copies are concerned. 
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  • SambostarSambostar Frets: 8745

    IBCM, I think you got a good one there.  I take it that is veneer on the back?

    I alkways thought that the obvious external photo differences are the binding on the cutaway.  I thought real gibsons had a thicker band on the cutaway that tapered, rather than a continous thickness of binding.  However, looking at a lot of them, this isn't always the case and in fact many Standard and Traditionals have laquer half over the binding at the cutaway, due to where the masking was put in the laquer process.  That said though, the binding around the neck and neck angle and general attention to detail gives the Chibsons away, especially around the neck joint underside also.  Also check the grain of the body wood runs through the sides on the thing, to prove that it is solid and not a veneer.  It's all the attention to detail where you will tell instantly.

    Backdoor Children Of The Sock
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  • SambostarSambostar Frets: 8745

    I agree with people wanting a gigging guitar that is more expendable than their pride and joy, just because of the price of them.  At the end of the day, it's not to prevent dings and stratches.  Everyone knows that those headstocks break real easy and once broken hundreds are wiped off the value of thing and worse case sometimes it cannot be repaired.

    I'm currentl gasing for a solid mahogany Les Paul, but it won't be a Gibson, too much.  Irony is I had a Maison white Les Paul custom, made in Korea in the '80's.  I sanded it down and refretted it and it was a great guitar and 100% solid mahogany with one piece mahogany neck, actually with a full thickness maple cap but the headstock snapped off it.  maybe too close of a replica.  I'd like an old Aria, but that volute just puts me off, so what can you do?

    I've considered Chibsons, but it's all show and glitter, I'd rather have something that was solid mahogany but looked shit.  Even if you don't get a scarf headstock, it's all a veneer. I guess I should get an Aria.

    Backdoor Children Of The Sock
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    Sambostar said:

    IBCM, I think you got a good one there.  I take it that is veneer on the back?

    I alkways thought that the obvious external photo differences are the binding on the cutaway.  I thought real gibsons had a thicker band on the cutaway that tapered, rather than a continous thickness of binding.  However, looking at a lot of them, this isn't always the case and in fact many Standard and Traditionals have laquer half over the binding at the cutaway, due to where the masking was put in the laquer process.  That said though, the binding around the neck and neck angle and general attention to detail gives the Chibsons away, especially around the neck joint underside also.  Also check the grain of the body wood runs through the sides on the thing, to prove that it is solid and not a veneer.  It's all the attention to detail where you will tell instantly.

    Trust me, if thermionic hadn't mentioned the veneer, I may not have spotted it, and you know how picky I am! It's astonishingly invisible - almost perfectly joined to the main body wood so that even if you look microscopically at the edges, it's hard to tell it's even there. The only giveaway is that there is a seam visible in the end of the guitar between the two pieces (off-centre join) which does not follow through onto the back. I don't doubt there could be others which are more obvious, but this one is so perfect that you would find it hard to believe it's a veneer, even *with* the proof.

    The binding inside the cutaway varies on Gibsons. In the 50s, it was a binding of constant width, equal to the thickness of the cap round the sides, which followed the arch of the *top* inside the cutaway, leaving a part of the maple top visible underneath it - it's not finish over the binding you can see, it's the paler wood. In the 70s it was changed to a horizontally-milled binding which followed the *bottom* of the maple all the way round, including inside the cutaway - about half the total height being removed round the rest of the body. Vintage reissues use the historically-correct narrow binding, as does this fake.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • @ICBM - I know it's a fake but your knock-off is still a beauty (even in those 'unfinished' pics). I would happily buy that guitar. Looks like the mutt's nuts. :D 
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 31369
    In fairness, people go nuts for a stupid lightweight body these days. Gibson needs to find the supplier the chibbo factory uses!

    Currently yes, but there are signs that the tide is turning the other way, people are starting to realise that they need a certain heft to sound like a Les Paul.
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  • These Chinese guitars are shite. The Japanese lawsuit guitars can't be compared to these in anyway. Some of the Tokais, Grecos etc are incredible. Not carrying a Gibson logo either.

    Does anyone know what these chibsons are even made of? A guitar needs to function, not just look like something. No surprise to see jokes about Gibson quality control, very predictable. I've owned a fair few Gibsons and they've all been of the highest standard.

    I'm sure Gibson's sales have not taken a hit because of these, but buyers have been ripped off by these guitars, and that is enough of a reason for them to be banned, seized, whatever they need to do, just like they do with fake Armani jeans on TV.
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  • ThePrettyDamnedThePrettyDamned Frets: 7472
    edited December 2013
    chrisj1602;99072" said:
    These Chinese guitars are shite. The Japanese lawsuit guitars can't be compared to these in anyway. Some of the Tokais, Grecos etc are incredible. Not carrying a Gibson logo either.

    Does anyone know what these chibsons are even made of? A guitar needs to function, not just look like something. No surprise to see jokes about Gibson quality control, very predictable. I've owned a fair few Gibsons and they've all been of the highest standard.

    I'm sure Gibson's sales have not taken a hit because of these, but buyers have been ripped off by these guitars, and that is enough of a reason for them to be banned, seized, whatever they need to do, just like they do with fake Armani jeans on TV.
    In my local GAS emporium sits a 335 in faded cherry Red (I think that's the name - a rougher looking finish). The guitar is over £2000.

    They didn't see fit to finish the inside of the f holes though. Instead, there is just nitro cellulose drips running down it in a few spots, leaving behind the bare plywood unfinished. Some of these drips landed inside the body, too, and we're left there.

    That *is* shitty quality control. Might not affect the instrument, but I think it's up for £2300 or so. I would expect perfection, and no less. Rickenbacker are guitars I cannot get along with, but the standard of fit and finish is miles higher.

    They're not all bad, I've tried a few lpj's out and they're nice for the money. But that 335 is an absolute joke. I've seen £100 Chinese shine guitars that don't forget to finish the inside of the f hole. Again, might not affect how good it is as a guitar, but its over £2000, which is European luthier territory (feline, mayones).

    Besides, a lot of these Chinese guitars *are* good guitars. They are missing something the Gibson ones have (thin finish, better hardware) but other than that, it's a good guitar. And they likely come from the same factories as epiphone, who have moved the guitar world more than Gibson have recently in terms of innovation (dual outputs with piezo and a blend for mono, tuner built into pickup ring).

    These fakes are bad for the industry, but it's up to Gibson to do something about it. I think, for me, the nitro finish would be the giveaway, but if you're not a guitar nerd (not all of us are) it's going to be a minefield. If they changed the headstock and added a new logo, they would probably be an accepted brand.

    EDIT: The Gibson in the shop isn't a 335, it's a Custom ES390 in Vintage Cherry Flame Top, £2400.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    These Chinese guitars are shite. The Japanese lawsuit guitars can't be compared to these in anyway. Some of the Tokais, Grecos etc are incredible. Not carrying a Gibson logo either.

    Does anyone know what these chibsons are even made of? A guitar needs to function, not just look like something.
    Sorry, but I can't agree with this.

    This Chinese guitar is *not* shite. It's not a real Gibson, but nor is a Japanese copy no matter what the reputation they seem to have… they neither feel the same nor sound the same. If anything this fake is more like a Tokai than either of them are like a Gibson.

    It is made from a solid, mahogany-like wood - of low density but that seems to be prized when it's in a real Gibson as p90fool said. Although the back is a veneer, the main part of the body is made from two solid pieces - the only reason I can see for veneering it is just that it's not one piece.

    Fitted with a pair of decent pickups, it sounds pretty good - it doesn't have the thickness and power of a proper Les Paul, but then neither does a Japanese copy and certainly not a semi-hollow Gibson one!

    I'm sure Gibson's sales have not taken a hit because of these, but buyers have been ripped off by these guitars, and that is enough of a reason for them to be banned, seized, whatever they need to do, just like they do with fake Armani jeans on TV.
    I agree with this up to a point. The only reason I accepted the job on this guitar was because the owner allowed me to brand it as a fake - I wouldn't have otherwise, even just to set it up and change the pickups. I would not want anyone to get ripped off in future. I certainly don't approve of importing and selling them commercially, not even by a 'private dealer' to make a few pounds. That's not how this guitar got here, and the owner has no intention of selling it as far as I know.

    But I think it's a real double standard to think that Tokai, Greco etc are acceptable because they put a different logo on what is still a blatant copy for which Gibson receive no money - and if anything those *are* the guitars which deprive Gibson of sales.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • MonstronautMonstronaut Frets: 193
    edited December 2013
    p90fool said:
    In fairness, people go nuts for a stupid lightweight body these days. Gibson needs to find the supplier the chibbo factory uses!

    Currently yes, but there are signs that the tide is turning the other way, people are starting to realise that they need a certain heft to sound like a Les Paul.
    The 'holy grail' les paul's from the 50's are pretty much all under 9lbs and solid. I'm not sure where the idea that a les paul should be heavy came from. As someone who has had my fair share of bastard heavy LP's (11lbs+) and light ones I'd say generally the lighter ones had more sustain, were more tonally more balanced both unplugged and plugged in. The heavier ones generally had a dead thump to them which was pretty good for high gain stuff but not much cop for classic rock. I'm generalising a bit but like I say I've had a few (50+). If I had to choose this would be my list of preferred manufacturers out of the ones I've had:

    Vintage(pre 1970)
    Navigator (Post 2000)
    Greco (1979-1983)
    Historic Gibson
    Tokai
    Edwards
    Gibson USA
    Bacchus
    Burny
    Epiphone


     
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  • chrisj1602chrisj1602 Frets: 3896
    edited December 2013
    I think my post came across a bit wrong.  It was a bit of a 'cold morning, got to get up for work, pissed off post'.  I'm not saying Gibsons are perfect, @ThePrettyDamned that ES390 sounds shocking, and I have seen some dodgy Gibson stuff myself.  I know there are some great guitars coming out of China and I have no problem with that, I'd love a Squier CV and a Cabronita.  I do struggle with these Chinese fakes though.  I have seen eBay auctions where people are bidding on them, and I wonder if they know or not.
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  • ESBlondeESBlonde Frets: 3576
    edited December 2013
    ICBM said:


    Back:


    Again not bad, but the incorrect symetrical control cover, and the matt textured plastic of both covers are pretty obvious. Also the body edges are too sharp and 'crisp' compared to a real one which are slightly more radiused. Oddly enough the cutaway horn doesn't look so bad from behind.


    Closer view:





    That was the clue to the layer on top. Bigger round overs would show the veneer. Kudos for branding the guitar.

    These Chibsons use timber from a member of the mahogany tree family that is somewhat removed from the properly sourced honduras stuff the old school use. The weight might be light but the body of tone especially in the upper registers is just not there.
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  • jaygtrjaygtr Frets: 218
    I have played some Gibsons shockers in the past. But everyone I've played recently, which is quite a few as I'm looking for a new amp, has been pretty good.
    Perhaps the stories that post flood Gibsons are improved are true. It makes sense as they were able to make a fresh start with all the insurance money.

    As for fakes they are much easier to spot when you have them in your hands as supposed to just looking at pics of them. Which is another reason to not buy one second hand online without trying it first.



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