So Labour want to get rid of Uni fees

chrispy108

Not really no, as me and other people have said, the repayments aren't crippling in anyway.

You might think they're ethically wrong, unfair, or whatever, but they aren't crippling or hamstringing anyone.

thomasross20

Where did the money come from before when there were no fees? 

I paid no fees and I'm way better off for it. I thrived in uni but not necessarily beforehand, and it's one of the top 3 things I've ever done. 

My attitude to debt is different from chrispy's as he knows - I get his argument but even better than paying something back, how about paying nothing back like used to be the case (and when does it start to become acceptable as more and more little debts add up)? It's a capital amount that takes some time to pay back; look at USA education debt, it's rather large - hopefully doesn't go that way here. 

It's good if people are choosing better courses and studying harder, I agree. Am I going mental but were there not no fees before? And then they whacked it up to quite a lot. Not exactly progressive? Or maybe I'm mixing it up with the Scottish system. I was relatively poor when younger and I really pulled myself out of it (not that I'm loaded now - pfft!) - and I'm SUPER glad I don't have some £15k+ debt per year on my head. Took me ages to clear my £15k loan. Yeah, I didn't have to clear it so early but I'm super averse to debt.

Axe_meister

chrispy108 said:

Ha! Very good @Axe_meister ;

These days companies won't even hire people to make sandwiches or file paperwork without paying them as unpaid interns or apprentices, they're hardly going to fund degrees.

The days of joining a company and getting trained up, progressing and retiring are long gone.

9k a year is a bargain compared to corporate training (typically 3k a week).
We do need equality in terms of degree courses. I graduated in 92. I did engineering so a typical 38hour lecture week plus practical work on Saturday and then self study time. Other courses (library studies as an expample) had 3 hours of lectures a week plus self study. The students got board and often said they could wrap up the course in a year.

LoFi

thomasross20 said:

It's good if people are choosing better courses and studying harder, I agree. Am I going mental but were there not no fees before? And then they whacked it up to quite a lot. Not exactly progressive? Or maybe I'm mixing it up with the Scottish system. 

Quite possibly - tuition fees were introduced in England and Wales in 1998 (my year was the first year to pay them). They were never introduced in Scotland (although Scottish MPs who knew their constituents wouldn't be affected voted to bring them in in England - a subject that still causes resentment and cries for EVEL).

I actually think the current system is the best we've had, if we need to have tuition fees at all. In my first year at Uni, fees were £1K (obviously a lot lower than now), but the maximum non-means-tested loan you could get was £3K, and no grant was available (for perspective, my second year rent totalled about £3800).

This meant that, if your parents weren't dirt poor (the threshold to lose means testing was by no means high), and not rich enough to send you a decent wedge each month, you had to work 24-odd hours a week during term time (and 40 during holidays) to afford to go to Uni.

This isn't a "Kids don't know how lucky they are" rant - I was lucky enough that my parents gave me a reasonable allowance, and so could manage with a couple of shifts a week in a pub. But it means that nowadays anyone can afford to go to University, regardless of circumstances, admittedly with a much higher eventual debt, but on terms that are very generous.

Whether or not we should have tuition fees is a separate question - regardless, I think there should be incentives for studying STEM subjects.

Gassage

My Mum and I did our first defrees at the same time, both of us living off a then student grant (84-87) and she as a mature student.

Seh was a single parent so just me and her and a housing association flat in Wolverhampton.

Mine was £2,332 incl London Weighting, her's a total of £2890, including allowances for me and the house.

How we managed I'll never know.

Danny1969

LoFi said:

thomasross20 said:

It's good if people are choosing better courses and studying harder, I agree. Am I going mental but were there not no fees before? And then they whacked it up to quite a lot. Not exactly progressive? Or maybe I'm mixing it up with the Scottish system. 

This isn't a "Kids don't know how lucky they are" rant - I was lucky enough that my parents gave me a reasonable allowance, and so could manage with a couple of shifts a week in a pub. But it means that nowadays anyone can afford to go to University, regardless of circumstances, admittedly with a much higher eventual debt, but on terms that are very generous.

Exactly !! ....and very well put. I really don't get why people think it's unfair ........ it's a great system that allows ANYONE to go to uni 

Foster

Garthy said:

Foster said:

Danny1969 said:

I really wanted to go to uni and do electronics when I was a nipper but couldn't afford to ... had to work as a labourer in industrial painting beating the rust off chemical tanks and painting pipes 30 feet up in the air. 

If someone had said to me we'll loan you all the money to go to Uni and you won't need to pay it back until your earning plenty of money yourself I would have jumped at the chance

I don't think there's anything wrong with tuition fees ... it's a fair system that gives everyone a chance

The only issue I had with the "pay it back when you earn plenty of money" is that they pick a figure based on what they assume you'll earn once your degree becomes useful. I graduated in 2012 and my threshold is £15k a year - anyone working 40 hours on minimum wage will be on that amount, it doesn't mean your degree helped you at all.

I bet you still put it on your C.V though...

Yes but it's besides the point. My degree hasn't influenced any jobs i've had. 

My issue is when you make a rule based on a figure when your degree will have supposedly become practical, that when inflation rises it would become impossible to get any full time job where you earn over that threshold.

I loved studying and gaining my degree, given the chance i'd do it all over again. Directly nobody has looked at my CV and gone 'hey, he's got a degree, lets interview him'

Sporky

Foster said:

Directly nobody has looked at my CV and gone 'hey, he's got a degree, lets interview him'

I did get one interview on the basis of having my degree - and that set me off on my career.

Drew_TNBD

I was lucky enough to do an arts degree.


... er....

Budgie

Drew_TNBD said:

I was lucky enough to do an arts degree.


... er....

Hahah! I feel your pain

Budgie

Reducing the fees by a third or whatever and making loans completely interest free would probably work well enough. 

chrispy108

Except most people won't pay their loan off, so it doesn't matter how big the total is.
What you're proposing really is making University cheaper for people who end up really well off after University, whilst charging everyone else the same. Seems pretty "unfair" to me.

The system as it is really is the "fairest" that it has ever been.

Myranda

axisus said:

I have always HATED the crippling uni fees that were brought in. How to hamstring peoples lives! So, I like that idea very much. However ........ that would be so unfair on all those that have now got massive massive debt on their hands. Boy would that stink!

Crippling in what way? Current loans require you to earn £21,000 a year and then you only pay 9% of everything over 21000 ... So given that the living wage in London of about £19,500 ish you *should* be able to survive in London (unless you want to live in Mayfair) on the part of your wages which are are not accounted for, and should be plenty left when you earn more.

Sporky said:

Foster said:

Directly nobody has looked at my CV and gone 'hey, he's got a degree, lets interview him'

I did get one interview on the basis of having my degree - and that set me off on my career.

It does rather depend on the job and the sector... I know someone who got a job because of their Fine Art degree because the ONLY listed requirement for the job was "Must have a degree" he applied and now is a project manager in a Pharmaceutical Clinical Trials Distribution company.

And a number of jobs list a degree as a requirement in some technical sectors...

But then when you have experience it often trumps a degree, if you can get past the HR department - a large number of which fixate on specifics so might just ignore anything without a listed qualification

thomasross20 said:

Where did the money come from before when there were no fees? 

I paid no fees and I'm way better off for it. I thrived in uni but not necessarily beforehand, and it's one of the top 3 things I've ever done. 

My attitude to debt is different from chrispy's as he knows - I get his argument but even better than paying something back, how about paying nothing back like used to be the case (and when does it start to become acceptable as more and more little debts add up)? It's a capital amount that takes some time to pay back; look at USA education debt, it's rather large - hopefully doesn't go that way here. 

It's good if people are choosing better courses and studying harder, I agree. Am I going mental but were there not no fees before? And then they whacked it up to quite a lot. Not exactly progressive? Or maybe I'm mixing it up with the Scottish system. I was relatively poor when younger and I really pulled myself out of it (not that I'm loaded now - pfft!) - and I'm SUPER glad I don't have some £15k+ debt per year on my head. Took me ages to clear my £15k loan. Yeah, I didn't have to clear it so early but I'm super averse to debt.

Tax. ... aaaaaand research.

This is where it's a bit of a swizz - universities make a lot of money from research... between that and government grants there seemed to be enough money.

Students studied for free and were given grants to pay for living costs (a bit - they were on the low side). Then after running on a platform of Education, Education, Education Blair's government instigated a series of loans instead of grants. Tuition fees were £1000 a year, and there was a maintenance loan for living costs. ...

All because a report commissioned by John Major suggested that from 1998 to 2018 there would need to be £2billion extra funding - which in light of how much extra tax people pay if they earn more and that statistically graduates earn more would probably have been covered by normal taxation.

chrispy108 said:

axisus said:

chrispy108 said:

axisus said:

I have always HATED the crippling uni fees that were brought in. How to hamstring peoples lives! 

No one is crippled or hamstrung by uni fees.

We can agree to disagree. 

I've got about £20k of student debt, it doesn't affect me in any real way. I pay a small chunk of my salary on it, but it's by far the smallest tax I pay each month (PAYE, NI, Council).

How exactly is that crippling?

The only people "crippled" by tax are those that worry about things they don't need to be. If the fear of "debt" is enough to stop you going to Uni, you probably shouldn't have gone anyway.

I wanted to check how much my debt is up to so far... £6500 for OU, £18000 in tuition fees, about £13,000 for maintenance loans... I think... but the system doesn't work right now so I can't check... there's another £1000 for the Year-in-industry and then another 15,500 for the final year... then I want to do a MSc so that's another £10,000 and maybe a PhD so that's another £25,000 ...

That's going to be a lot - and I still don't see that as crippling 

Sporky

Myranda said:

Sporky said:

Foster said:

Directly nobody has looked at my CV and gone 'hey, he's got a degree, lets interview him'

I did get one interview on the basis of having my degree - and that set me off on my career.

It does rather depend on the job and the sector... I know someone who got a job because of their Fine Art degree because the ONLY listed requirement for the job was "Must have a degree" he applied and now is a project manager in a Pharmaceutical Clinical Trials Distribution company.

And a number of jobs list a degree as a requirement in some technical sectors...

I got interviewed because I had an engineering degree, and the chap who ran the department reckoned that was probably difficult so I probably wasn't a thicko.

Actually, my job after the job after that one required an engineering degree too.

Myranda

Sporky said:

Myranda said:

Sporky said:

Foster said:

Directly nobody has looked at my CV and gone 'hey, he's got a degree, lets interview him'

I did get one interview on the basis of having my degree - and that set me off on my career.

It does rather depend on the job and the sector... I know someone who got a job because of their Fine Art degree because the ONLY listed requirement for the job was "Must have a degree" he applied and now is a project manager in a Pharmaceutical Clinical Trials Distribution company.

And a number of jobs list a degree as a requirement in some technical sectors...

I got interviewed because I had an engineering degree, and the chap who ran the department reckoned that was probably difficult so I probably wasn't a thicko.

Actually, my job after the job after that one required an engineering degree too.

So, two jobs because of your degree! J'accuse! 

ThePrettyDamned

Sporky said:

Foster said:

Directly nobody has looked at my CV and gone 'hey, he's got a degree, lets interview him'

I did get one interview on the basis of having my degree - and that set me off on my career.

I have had interviews that "require degree level education" and held jobs... 

But they definitely did not require a degree. Just a base level of training and general communications would be enough, easily... 

My degree isn't getting me too far right now either but I appreciate my job history is, er, unconventional. 

Edit: I am obviously not downplaying your, or anyone else's, experience! But a lot of jobs that ask for a degree seem to be pretty simplistic and the kind of thing that should just take a month induction period. 

axisus

Myranda said:

axisus said:

I have always HATED the crippling uni fees that were brought in. How to hamstring peoples lives! So, I like that idea very much. However ........ that would be so unfair on all those that have now got massive massive debt on their hands. Boy would that stink!

Crippling in what way? Current loans require you to earn £21,000 a year and then you only pay 9% of everything over 21000 ... So given that the living wage in London of about £19,500 ish you *should* be able to survive in London (unless you want to live in Mayfair) on the part of your wages which are are not accounted for, and should be plenty left when you earn more.

Sporky said:

Foster said:

Directly nobody has looked at my CV and gone 'hey, he's got a degree, lets interview him'

I did get one interview on the basis of having my degree - and that set me off on my career.

It does rather depend on the job and the sector... I know someone who got a job because of their Fine Art degree because the ONLY listed requirement for the job was "Must have a degree" he applied and now is a project manager in a Pharmaceutical Clinical Trials Distribution company.

And a number of jobs list a degree as a requirement in some technical sectors...

But then when you have experience it often trumps a degree, if you can get past the HR department - a large number of which fixate on specifics so might just ignore anything without a listed qualification

thomasross20 said:

Where did the money come from before when there were no fees? 

I paid no fees and I'm way better off for it. I thrived in uni but not necessarily beforehand, and it's one of the top 3 things I've ever done. 

My attitude to debt is different from chrispy's as he knows - I get his argument but even better than paying something back, how about paying nothing back like used to be the case (and when does it start to become acceptable as more and more little debts add up)? It's a capital amount that takes some time to pay back; look at USA education debt, it's rather large - hopefully doesn't go that way here. 

It's good if people are choosing better courses and studying harder, I agree. Am I going mental but were there not no fees before? And then they whacked it up to quite a lot. Not exactly progressive? Or maybe I'm mixing it up with the Scottish system. I was relatively poor when younger and I really pulled myself out of it (not that I'm loaded now - pfft!) - and I'm SUPER glad I don't have some £15k+ debt per year on my head. Took me ages to clear my £15k loan. Yeah, I didn't have to clear it so early but I'm super averse to debt.

Tax. ... aaaaaand research.

This is where it's a bit of a swizz - universities make a lot of money from research... between that and government grants there seemed to be enough money.

Students studied for free and were given grants to pay for living costs (a bit - they were on the low side). Then after running on a platform of Education, Education, Education Blair's government instigated a series of loans instead of grants. Tuition fees were £1000 a year, and there was a maintenance loan for living costs. ...

All because a report commissioned by John Major suggested that from 1998 to 2018 there would need to be £2billion extra funding - which in light of how much extra tax people pay if they earn more and that statistically graduates earn more would probably have been covered by normal taxation.

chrispy108 said:

axisus said:

chrispy108 said:

axisus said:

I have always HATED the crippling uni fees that were brought in. How to hamstring peoples lives! 

No one is crippled or hamstrung by uni fees.

We can agree to disagree. 

I've got about £20k of student debt, it doesn't affect me in any real way. I pay a small chunk of my salary on it, but it's by far the smallest tax I pay each month (PAYE, NI, Council).

How exactly is that crippling?

The only people "crippled" by tax are those that worry about things they don't need to be. If the fear of "debt" is enough to stop you going to Uni, you probably shouldn't have gone anyway.

I wanted to check how much my debt is up to so far... £6500 for OU, £18000 in tuition fees, about £13,000 for maintenance loans... I think... but the system doesn't work right now so I can't check... there's another £1000 for the Year-in-industry and then another 15,500 for the final year... then I want to do a MSc so that's another £10,000 and maybe a PhD so that's another £25,000 ...

That's going to be a lot - and I still don't see that as crippling 

You lot make me laugh. Still, I'm glad you are happy with your lot.

Axe_meister

Having good A levels used to get you a good job from which you could enter a good career path, even surpasses so called Graduate jobs. Except in maybe some specialist fields, such as Engineering and science. 
But because Blair decided he wanted 50% of young people to go to uni A-levels and GCSEs have become totally devalued 

Myranda

axisus said:

Myranda said:

-snip-

...

That's going to be a lot - and I still don't see that as crippling 

You lot make me laugh. Still, I'm glad you are happy with your lot.

It's not crippling though is it? 

The previous system was much worse for the amount you earn before repayment (as low as £15,000 though adjusted a bit for inflation I think it's close to £18,000 now) so unless you're living in London you can live on what's left... it doesn't prevent social mobility, it doesn't lower standards of life... 

In what way is it crippling debt?

olafgarten

fob said:

olafgarten said:

What proportion do they make up?

I'm tempted to say 99.999%

I'm in University now, and on my course I'd say realistically, 25% will drop out this year and maybe a few more next year. 

I will sometimes work with/in a number of universities each year and I would doubt it's anywhere near that figure; I don't have any stats to hand but I would guess 5% is a lot closer. I would agree though that index-linked loans is probably the fairest system.

Unfortunately, a university degree is no longer what it was - it seems to me to be the new 'level' at which a lot of companies will set as their minimum requirement for employment. Do you really need three or four years of university (at a cost of ~ £60k all-in) to be ready for the ASDA management training programme? I think anyone who is accepted onto these programmes would have done just as well if they started without the degree. It seems like the HR industry have found a way to avoid wading through a few (actually probably a lot) of pointless applications.

If there was going to be any financial incentive for new university students I think it should be that a chunk of your debt is knocked off for the successful completion of an Honours degree in a BSc or similar - BAs have to accept the full whack. So, instead of £27k tuition debt at the end of the course it is, perhaps, £18k. I think the real investment though should come at the postgraduate level - that's where you start to see a real thinning out of those that are at university because 'that's what you do at 18 or 19' and those that are there to invest in their own futures.

I'm doing Computer Science which is considered a pretty hard course, and last year around 20% of students dropped out after the first year. 

This year they dropped their entry requirements as well so I wouldn't be surprised if it was 25%, although they have apparently improved teaching of some modules.