So Labour want to get rid of Uni fees

axisus

I have always HATED the crippling uni fees that were brought in. How to hamstring peoples lives! So, I like that idea very much. However ........ that would be so unfair on all those that have now got massive massive debt on their hands. Boy would that stink!

joeyowen

I don't mind if others get it free, even if I paid 

I question where all the magic money is coming from. I would feel a bit hard done by if my taxes go up to fund something I had to pay many thousands for. 

Its a very easy thing to say from labour to attract young voters 

thomasw88

axisus said:

I have always HATED the crippling uni fees that were brought in. How to hamstring peoples lives! So, I like that idea very much. However ........ that would be so unfair on all those that have now got massive massive debt on their hands. Boy would that stink!

So instead of sorting something that needs sorting we just keep on the way it is.
putting more and more people every year into a larger amount of debt...

Sporky

I got my fees paid but nothing else. I have no problem with degree tuition being fully paid. Not 100% certain on whether there should be grants, but I suspect there should.

Education is a thing I don't mind paying tax for, but as with all things I'd rather the government stop shitting money into a deep hole and use what they already rob from us.

joeyowen

One issue is the amount of 'students' who go to uni with no hope of actually getting the qualification. 

Get a nice big loan with no real intention of turning up etc, and drop out before the end. Good nights out in Bristol though eh! 

Also, unis are a lot less fussy on who they take sometimes. They are giving unconditional offers based on as level results. 

All this ends up with nothing going back into the economy apart from the job at asda they had before hand. 

(all this of course is only in places, no offence) 

Sporky

joeyowen said:

One issue is the amount of 'students' who go to uni with no hope of actually getting the qualification.

What proportion do they make up?

joeyowen

Sporky said:

joeyowen said:

One issue is the amount of 'students' who go to uni with no hope of actually getting the qualification.

What proportion do they make up?

I'm tempted to say 99.999%

olafgarten

joeyowen said:

Sporky said:

joeyowen said:

One issue is the amount of 'students' who go to uni with no hope of actually getting the qualification.

What proportion do they make up?

I'm tempted to say 99.999%

I'm in University now, and on my course I'd say realistically, 25% will drop out this year and maybe a few more next year. 

equalsql

Most kids are arguably not academic,. Much more emphasis needs to put on good quality vocational training. Apprenticeships are a start so is the new idea of having a T-Level for technically minded students.  Having worked at a university for the past nine years... and in the late 70s and early 80s I can see that most students nowadays are just not up to the task. FFS you only need to get 70% to be considered for a First at some establishments.  Kids are being steered into a lifetime of debt to obtain, in many cases, useless degrees.

Danny1969

I really wanted to go to uni and do electronics when I was a nipper but couldn't afford to ... had to work as a labourer in industrial painting beating the rust off chemical tanks and painting pipes 30 feet up in the air. 

If someone had said to me we'll loan you all the money to go to Uni and you won't need to pay it back until your earning plenty of money yourself I would have jumped at the chance

I don't think there's anything wrong with tuition fees ... it's a fair system that gives everyone a chance

Foster

Danny1969 said:

I really wanted to go to uni and do electronics when I was a nipper but couldn't afford to ... had to work as a labourer in industrial painting beating the rust off chemical tanks and painting pipes 30 feet up in the air. 

If someone had said to me we'll loan you all the money to go to Uni and you won't need to pay it back until your earning plenty of money yourself I would have jumped at the chance

I don't think there's anything wrong with tuition fees ... it's a fair system that gives everyone a chance

The only issue I had with the "pay it back when you earn plenty of money" is that they pick a figure based on what they assume you'll earn once your degree becomes useful. I graduated in 2012 and my threshold is £15k a year - anyone working 40 hours on minimum wage will be on that amount, it doesn't mean your degree helped you at all.

fob

olafgarten said:

What proportion do they make up?

I'm tempted to say 99.999%

I'm in University now, and on my course I'd say realistically, 25% will drop out this year and maybe a few more next year. 

I will sometimes work with/in a number of universities each year and I would doubt it's anywhere near that figure; I don't have any stats to hand but I would guess 5% is a lot closer. I would agree though that index-linked loans is probably the fairest system.

Unfortunately, a university degree is no longer what it was - it seems to me to be the new 'level' at which a lot of companies will set as their minimum requirement for employment. Do you really need three or four years of university (at a cost of ~ £60k all-in) to be ready for the ASDA management training programme? I think anyone who is accepted onto these programmes would have done just as well if they started without the degree. It seems like the HR industry have found a way to avoid wading through a few (actually probably a lot) of pointless applications.

If there was going to be any financial incentive for new university students I think it should be that a chunk of your debt is knocked off for the successful completion of an Honours degree in a BSc or similar - BAs have to accept the full whack. So, instead of £27k tuition debt at the end of the course it is, perhaps, £18k. I think the real investment though should come at the postgraduate level - that's where you start to see a real thinning out of those that are at university because 'that's what you do at 18 or 19' and those that are there to invest in their own futures.

Garthy

Foster said:

Danny1969 said:

I really wanted to go to uni and do electronics when I was a nipper but couldn't afford to ... had to work as a labourer in industrial painting beating the rust off chemical tanks and painting pipes 30 feet up in the air. 

If someone had said to me we'll loan you all the money to go to Uni and you won't need to pay it back until your earning plenty of money yourself I would have jumped at the chance

I don't think there's anything wrong with tuition fees ... it's a fair system that gives everyone a chance

The only issue I had with the "pay it back when you earn plenty of money" is that they pick a figure based on what they assume you'll earn once your degree becomes useful. I graduated in 2012 and my threshold is £15k a year - anyone working 40 hours on minimum wage will be on that amount, it doesn't mean your degree helped you at all.

I bet you still put it on your C.V though...

chrispy108

axisus said:

I have always HATED the crippling uni fees that were brought in. How to hamstring peoples lives! 

No one is crippled or hamstrung by uni fees.

9% of what you earn over £15k doesn't cripple anyone, and when the fees increased the payment threshold also increased to £21k, so it's definitely not crippling anyone is it?

The lecturers (Physics) at my Uni I've spoken to since I left said that the increase in fees have made students taken their studies more seriously, and also led to more students studying "harder" courses, rather than "soft" courses.

Both of these things seem to be good, and yet, the average student will pay back less, because the payment threshold has gone up, and the amount has gone up, so most people will never pay it all back.

The current system is the most progressive we've had, everyone at 18 can borrow the same amount of money from the Government, and those who earn loads after graduating pay loads back, those that earn a decent amount pay a decent amount back, and those that earn nothing or a little pay nothing back. Seems fair to me.

When I went to Uni (2005 to 2009, took a year out in industry) people from "poor" families had lots of grants and bursaries, and people from "rich" families got money from home, both groups had more money than they "needed" to live and study, and those in the middle were broke and scrapping by. I hated how at 18 I was allowed to take debt on in my name as an adult, and my parents income counted because I was a child. Which am I? Adult or child? Whichever suits the Government best.

New system seems way better.

axisus

chrispy108 said:

axisus said:

I have always HATED the crippling uni fees that were brought in. How to hamstring peoples lives! 

No one is crippled or hamstrung by uni fees.

We can agree to disagree. 

WezV

But you only pay back a proportion (9%) of anything you earn over the threshold. 

Handsome_Chris

I'm all for free education; however, how many media studies students do we need?  There is only so much reality TV I can watch, which is none.

chrispy108

axisus said:

chrispy108 said:

axisus said:

I have always HATED the crippling uni fees that were brought in. How to hamstring peoples lives! 

No one is crippled or hamstrung by uni fees.

We can agree to disagree. 

I've got about £20k of student debt, it doesn't affect me in any real way. I pay a small chunk of my salary on it, but it's by far the smallest tax I pay each month (PAYE, NI, Council).

How exactly is that crippling?

The only people "crippled" by tax are those that worry about things they don't need to be. If the fear of "debt" is enough to stop you going to Uni, you probably shouldn't have gone anyway.

Axe_meister

How about getting rid of the system where you progress from A-Level straight to a degree. But have companies fund degree level qualifications.
You get a job based on on your A-Level qualifications. The company then determines if you should get a degree and then send you off to do a relevant degree. It may be straight away or later depending on where you are on your career path.

chrispy108

Ha! Very good @Axe_meister ;

These days companies won't even hire people to make sandwiches or file paperwork without paying them as unpaid interns or apprentices, they're hardly going to fund degrees.

The days of joining a company and getting trained up, progressing and retiring are long gone.

axisus

chrispy108 said:

axisus said:

chrispy108 said:

axisus said:

I have always HATED the crippling uni fees that were brought in. How to hamstring peoples lives! 

No one is crippled or hamstrung by uni fees.

We can agree to disagree. 

I've got about £20k of student debt, it doesn't affect me in any real way. I pay a small chunk of my salary on it, but it's by far the smallest tax I pay each month (PAYE, NI, Council).

How exactly is that crippling?

The only people "crippled" by tax are those that worry about things they don't need to be. If the fear of "debt" is enough to stop you going to Uni, you probably shouldn't have gone anyway.

Like I said. We agree to disagree. Glad to hear that you are happy with your circumstances though.