The proverbial gig volume dilemma

Ossyrocks

Hi chaps,

I recently auditioned for and subsequently joined a classic rock band, Zep, Purple, Lizzy, Free, Bad Co, Skynard etc. Last night was my third gig, in a fairly big pub. 

I'm playing a Les Paul through my Gartone 5E3 as the main tone, controlled from the guitar. Occasionally I kick in a boost for more sustained leads. 

The drummer is very good, has a huge kit and two Chinas on my side. The other guitarist is using a Fractal something, it looks complicated, but sounds pretty good. Bass player is also the singer and sorts all PA, which again is big and impressive, and the kit is also miked up. The drummer is quite a heavy hitter too.

Now, the thing is, I am being told over and over again that I'm too loud, with just the 5E3 running. Everything is miked up, but there is no monitoring, and I'm stood right next a huge kit being hit hard. It's got to the point where I really don't know how to proceed. I don't feel like I'm too loud, I actually think I'm just about audible enough up against the kit and the other guys, just to hear myself. If I turn down, I won't hear it and I will lose the cranked tweed tone I'm using. I'm actually thinking of building a Princeton clone to see how that fairs! 

The band really has potential and I'm enjoying the music, but this constant accusation of being too loud is getting to me, and I really don't see how it can be justified given the rig I'm using.

Thoughts welcome,

MatthewShreddery

Turn the amp round so it faces you and angle it up like a monitor wedge 

Grunfeld

Ossyrocks said:

Now, the thing is, I am being told over and over again that I'm too loud...

By whom?
If it's someone with a dog in the race then their opinion might be biased.
Getting an unbiased third party would be good but you need someone who knows what they're listening to.
Which is not always easy. 

Ossyrocks

Grunfeld said:

Ossyrocks said:

Now, the thing is, I am being told over and over again that I'm too loud...

By whom?
If it's someone with a dog in the race then their opinion might be biased.
Getting an unbiased third party would be good but you need someone who knows what they're listening to.
Which is not always easy. 

By the lead singer/bass player, who is also standing right in front of said kit. I'm off to his right.

stratman3142

MatthewShreddery said:

Turn the amp round so it faces you and angle it up like a monitor wedge 

I'd agree with this. If I'm mic'd, I tilt my amp back so it's pointing roughly towards my ears.

Also, it would be good to establish whether it's just a monitoring issue (i.e. hearing yourself on stage) or whether you're at the correct volume off stage. For the latter, it's good to have the opinion of someone you trust in the audience that will give an unbiased opinion.

I hold the view that under the vocals or someone else's solo that, if in doubt, it's better to err on the side of caution and possibly be slightly under volume than too loud. But during my solos I like to be sure I'm really cutting through.

Hoof

An 18w plexi cranked will be too loud for pub gigs, especially if everything is through the PA. I know your tone is important to you but you need to find other ways to create it. Bring along a good overdrive pedal and get your gain from that. I know it's frustrating but things have changed and people just seem to find loud guitars intolerable now.

My head has a 2w setting and I have even had to turn that down on more than one occassion. 

To be honest though it sounds like the drummer is the real issue. You're always going to be drowned out by a hard hitting drummer in a pub band and he needs to play softer and modify his kit to arrest the volume somewhat. China cymbals are fucking ridiculous on a pub band kit.

viz

Either have your amp a long way behind you or mic it and use stage monitors / iems - it's the only way to hear what you're playing in a loud band while not melting the faces of the audience. 

Ossyrocks

@Hoof it's not an 18w plexi, it's a 5E3, I actually have both and take the 18w as spare. The 18w is quite a bit louder than the 5E3.

EricTheWeary

Grunfeld said:

Ossyrocks said:

Now, the thing is, I am being told over and over again that I'm too loud...

By whom?
If it's someone with a dog in the race then their opinion might be biased.
Getting an unbiased third party would be good but you need someone who knows what they're listening to.
Which is not always easy. 

If you have a wireless system or even a very long lead ( or just use a looper and put your guitar down) you could stand out front and have a listen. What people can hear in the band and what the audience can hear don't necessarily correlate. 

Sometimes it's everything louder than everything else because of the players not listening/ lack of arrangement - just an overly busy drummer that you are trying to compete against maybe ( or just those China cymbals). 

ecc83

The 5E3 is two 6V6s I discover and so could easily put out over 15W and thus over 110dB SPL at a mtr. If the singer is but a mtr or so away I would say he might think you too loud.

I agree with getting the amp closer to you and facing away from the singer (closed backed cab?) but maybe you feel you need the power for the tone? If so you could look into a power soak? One with a 50W rating would serve.

I have not been to hear a pub band for some 5 years but, IIRC they are AWLAYS too *&^%% LOUD!

Dave.

hywelg

Take another cab, one with really inefficient speakers like Jensen R's. That will cut the volume considerably if you currently have an efficient speaker in there.

But, I think the problem might be elsewhere. If the drummer is genuinely a big hitter then you probably aren't too loud. I used to wear one earplug when standing next to a loud drummer. How directional is your amp? Is one of the band getting a 'beam' off your speaker? If so it can be painfully loud and harsh. You know about the Jay Mitchell Donuts don't you?. They do work.

Also consider a plexiglass screen if other members of the band are in the direct firing line of your amp.

RocknRollDave

No monitoring? Even for the singer?

John_P

I can't imagine how the singer had a chance if there are no monitors.  
With a heavy drummer I suspect you aren't too loud for the sound you want but as said above you might be hitting the singer with a beam - if look at how you are positioning the amp.   
I play with some silly loud drummers and find I'm torn between a sound I want but not wanting to contribute to a volume war onstage.  Quite often I'll set my volume at the minimum needed for others to hear me and work with whoever is in the opposite side of the stage til we are happy with each others sound and all curse the pain of the cymbals and snare.   

TTBZ

Could you try turning the amp to the back wall and mic'ing it?

Ossyrocks

Thanks for all the input chaps, there are some useful contributions for consideration.

No, the singer has no monitors either, he doesn't like them and likes to hear himself from the main rig. I think that's where the fundamental issue arises.

Fairly loud drummer (who plays well and I enjoy playing with), mic'ed up backline and drums as the singer wants to create the perfect mix out front, and then contrary to what you would expect, we have no monitoring. So if I turn down, as the singer wants, I would not really be able to hear myself, but he would, as he's up front listening to the main mix and I'm at the back struggling to hear anyone except the drums on my immediate left.

I don't think I will be able to convince him to use monitors, so I'll have to find ways to get my amp out of the way where I can hear it well, but it's not bothering him.

Cheers!

not_the_dj

"the singer has no monitors either, he doesn't like them and likes to hear himself from the main rig"

"singer wants to create the perfect mix out front"

Unless he's standing in the audience these two things can't happen together.

RocknRollDave

Ossyrocks said:

No, the singer has no monitors either, he doesn't like them and likes to hear himself from the main rig. I think that's where the fundamental issue arises.

That is absolutely ludicrous! There is no workable solution, IMO, that would allow all three of the following criteria to be met whilst he insists on not using monitors:


Reasonable volume onstage.
Reasonable mix onstage so that everyone can hear what they need to hear.
Appropriate sound mix front of house.

I've never heard of such a thing as a singer who doesn't want monitors! I couldn't work under those conditions, personally.

TheBigDipper

Can you hear the bass, vocals and other guitarist onstage well enough to be able to play as a unit? Sounds like you might all be too loud to do it without some form of onstage monitoring, and I suspect making the drummer play quieter (coz he is the limiting factor here, surely?) may be a difficult conversation.

impmann

Your singer is a prat. Just sayin'...

scalino65

I know naff all about live stuff, but cant you just stand somewhere else?

Ossyrocks

@not_the_dj , @RocknRollDave , @TheBigDipper , you're all right, I know. This is a new band for me, I auditioned and got the job, so I'm the new guy. 

What I hear on stage is dominated by the drums, with me a struggling second along with bass, fourth is vocals and coming in last is the other guitar player who is at the other side of the stage. This does have an impact on how tight the band is. Good monitoring would be a massive improvement, and I would be glad to turn down if that was the case.

I'm going to have to have these conversations I think. Getting the drummer to change his style isn't an option, and anyway, he's good. 

Given the gigs we're doing, I actually don't think micing everything up is necessary. Most of the bands I've played in up to now, have just gone backline only and lead vocals in the PA. I would much prefer this, rather than the halfway house solution we are currently using, where the drums acoustically are already loud, then they're mic'ed up on top of that, but I'm expected to play quieter but with no monitors.

Cheers.