The proverbial gig volume dilemma

jellybelly

Sounds like your band rely on the PA as the central component. If you want to keep it simple maybe just go direct with a Tech21 Blonde or something? Or swap your speaker for something inefficient like a G12-65?

ecc83

To get back to the basic premise of the question, band volume. My touchstone when I enter a pub with a band playing is, can I order a pint?!

If you see customers climbing into the bar to spit in the barperson's ear you are too loud!  And what OF the bar people? H&S at Work? Oh! Forgot, they are all on zero hours contracts and no longer HAVE any rights.

Dave.

Teyeplayer

On stage volumes are an unrealistic way of gauging volume...however it is very easy to presume everyone should be as loud as you and keep cranking it to ear splitting levels and fucking the mix.

Remember that a)the average punter doesn't give a shit about 'your tone', as said above find an alternative and b) whether monitored or not the singer needs to hear himself, if he can't...you turn yourself down -that is the job. 

Sorry buddy, from the way you've put this I am not convinced you are the entire problem but you are dedinitely the solution at this point. Remember at all times you need to be sympathetic to the entire band and they need to be the same (drummers in particular) -learn to work together rather than competing for sonic space.

ICBM

You definitely need to put the amp where you can hear it more than the singer can. If it's on the floor with you closer to it than he is, that's definitely going to be part of the problem - the closer to it you are, the further 'off axis' from the speaker and so the less you'll hear it. If it was me I would have it raised up to waist height, possibly tilted back a bit (although I prefer not), not pointing towards the singer, and preferably not the audience either. ie slightly outwards from stage front usually, if you're at one side.

I used to do this when I was in a band with a quiet female singer, because otherwise there would be too much spill into her mic even when I was still actually too quiet on stage, not too loud.

If that fails and the amp is still really too loud - a 5E3 is surpringly cutting for only 15W - you need either a less efficient speaker or an attenuator, or to get more of the distortion from a pedal so you can turn the amp down. I had to do that when I used a tweed Champ in a piano-bar rock'n'roll band! Despite it being only 5W with an 8" speaker... it was genuinely too loud.

Telejester

impmann said:

Your singer is a prat. Just sayin'...

Most likely band member to cause issues.........the singer, and even worse is a girl singer.

ICBM

Telejester said:

and even worse is a girl singer.

In my experience, the exact opposite...

John_A

Telejester said:

impmann said:

Your singer is a prat. Just sayin'...

Most likely band member to cause issues.........the singer, and even worse is a girl singer.

And also, most likely, from the audience perspective, the most important.  Not always easy, but you need to keep them happy and singing in tune

Teyeplayer

ICBM said:

Telejester said:

and even worse is a girl singer.

In my experience, the exact opposite...

This.

Most likely to cause problems are usually the lead guitarist who don't know how to turn their gear down and end up upsetting the rest of the band, the sound man or the audience; at which point we've gone full circle!

Roland

Conversation from Saturday's sound check:
Singer: I can't hear the guitar in FOH.
Sound: I turned him down because I don't want him to deafen me when he turns up.
Singer: Turn it up.

Singer: The guitar needs to be louder.

Singer: More ...

It's not always the guitarist, sometimes it's fear of the guitarist.

Teyeplayer

Roland said:

Conversation from Saturday's sound check:
Singer: I can't hear the guitar in FOH.
Sound: I turned him down because I don't want him to deafen me when he turns up.
Singer: Turn it up.

Singer: The guitar needs to be louder.

Singer: More ...

It's not always the guitarist, sometimes it's fear of the guitarist.

Fair call and agreed there is often far too little of the lead instrument in the monitors, but notice the soundmans learnt expectation of 'WHEN he turns up', there is no if or maybe there -that type of opinion doesn't occur overnight or without good reason unfortunately.

ICBM

Roland said:

Conversation from Saturday's sound check:
Singer: I can't hear the guitar in FOH.
Sound: I turned him down because I don't want him to deafen me when he turns up.
Singer: Turn it up.

Singer: The guitar needs to be louder.

Singer: More ...

It's not always the guitarist, sometimes it's fear of the guitarist.

I once went to a gig where I knew the soundman quite well, and as I wheeled my 4x12" onto the stage, a familiar voice came over the monitors… "John, you're too loud".



He was actually quite happy to let me play at more than the volume I had originally intended to, after I decided to get my own back and demonstrate what 'too loud' really meant. It was only a 50W amp, after all...

shaunm

Hit your singer with your 5e3. 

Ossyrocks

So, the opinions here have varied quite a lot, and there has been some great input.

There is an element of the comments which tends to blame me for being the problem as I dare to try to gig a cranked 5E3. I accept that a 5E3 can be a loud amp in some circumstances, but I feel I need to defend myself here as it has to be seen and heard in context of the band I'm trying to play with, and up against a mic'ed large kit and having no monitors, it's always going to be an uphill struggle.

I will take away much of what has been said, and see if I can reduce the apparent volume the singer seems to have issues with. I have already added a couple of OD's to the board, a Fulldrive 2 and an Overrated Special, which I will try in the absence of cranking the amp. Long term though, I want to get that cranked tweed tone, so I'm looking at attenuators, or even possibly a Clearsonic amp shield. I think I need to reduce my apparent volume, but at the same time I need to block out the deafening drums and those China cymbals, so earplugs are in order for the next gig. To be honest, after the last one, I absolutely need to do something about standing next to the kit, or I'll be deaf before Christmas.

Has anyone tried or is using a Clearsonic shield?

Cheers,
Rob

John_A

I think you are on to a losing battle, if you wear earplugs to stop the drum kit deafening you that will also reduce the amount of guitar you can hear.  If you are determined to use a cranked 5E3 then an attenuator and in-ear monitors sounds like the best bet.  The easiest solution is to move away from the drummer, and point the amp at you.

As for defending yourself, if you are too loud for the singer you are too loud, you don' t 'need' a cranked up amp, the singer needs to hear themselves, Clearsonic shields are all well and good for Joe Bonamassa, for everyone else they are a pain in the arse.  You'll take up half the stage, take longer to set-up.  Being in a band is all about compromise to make the band sound good, not a showcase for your guitar tone

ICBM

That is all true, but I still find it a bit hard to believe that even a fully-cranked 5E3 is actually too loud, on a stage with a heavy-hitting drummer. My guess is that it's the directionality of it which is the main cause of the problems - the 'beam' from a 1x12" can be like a sonic searchlight, and all you often need to do is make sure that it isn't pointing at anyone, other than possibly nearly at yourself.

ChrisCox1994

Drummer is too loud - its always eventually the drummers fault, quieter cymbals and proper tuning, not to mention technique, can get a great rock drum sound without being deafening. 

shaunm

Recently I have taken to turning my amp and facing it either away from everyone else on stage or backwards. Neither of these really make it less noisy but they do stop the beam. The way I understand it it's the same thing that those plexi shields do? 

Do you not find that you get more cut for coming down in volume on a 5e3? I struggled to cut through when I ran mine up full because of the compression. 

Ossyrocks

shaunm said:

Recently I have taken to turning my amp and facing it either away from everyone else on stage or backwards. Neither of these really make it less noisy but they do stop the beam. The way I understand it it's the same thing that those plexi shields do? 

Do you not find that you get more cut for coming down in volume on a 5e3? I struggled to cut through when I ran mine up full because of the compression. 

It's on about 8 or 9, with 12 being max. As you know, they don't really get any louder after about 5 or 6, just more driven.

Telejester

Nobody has asked,.......incidentally how is the drummers hearing ?

Either he thinks he is reincarnation of John Bonham or his hearing is cooked to the extent he can't hear the volume levels created by his drum kit.

Last band I was in was a twin guitar setup and never again.

Cabicular

Telejester said:

Nobody has asked,.......incidentally how is the drummers hearing ?

Either he thinks he is reincarnation of John Bonham or his hearing is cooked to the extent he can't hear the volume levels created by his drum kit.

Last band I was in was a twin guitar setup and never again.

Was it a girl guitarist?