Hard to make an LP style guitar?

BigMonka

customkits said:

I forgot to mention freddy g from my les paul has just done a complete you tube building les paul series, highly recommended just to get your head around the whole process start to finish

ooh, have you got a link to the youtube channel please? (for those of us that aren't MLP users)

Danielsguitars

BigMonka said:

customkits said:

I forgot to mention freddy g from my les paul has just done a complete you tube building les paul series, highly recommended just to get your head around the whole process start to finish

ooh, have you got a link to the youtube channel please? (for those of us that aren't MLP users)

here you go just bear in mind how he builds isn't necessarily the way you'll build but it'll give you ideas

You will need the box jig imo, he uses a copy carver so do I now

GSPBASSES

I don't normally like to criticise or comment on how somebody does anything. If I'm asked for advice I will freely give it. But having just watched the above video, that would put me off trying to join wood for life if I did not know better. That has got to be one of the most ham-fisted amateur why of joining two pieces of wood I've ever come across.

 I can't get my head round why you would drill into two pieces of wood and leave the drill in to keep it registered.

 The bandsaw he used was either grossly underpowered or the blade was completely blunt, plus the fact it wasn't screwed to the ground, you can see moving, very dangerous.

 He went to great lengths to explain he had spent a long time setting up the jointer with new planar blades. Then proceeded to totally clock up the joint. Again, very dangerous, pushing wood across a planar one-handed is just asking for trouble. Using a jointer should give you a finish that is ready to glue without any hand planning to do. The most obvious thing that he did wrong was pushing down in the middle of the wood, that is a total no-no. The wood should be pushed through with a small amount of downward pressure with your right hand, your left hand should be pushing the wood against the backstop with minimal down pressure. This will give you a perfect joint every time. After he spotted the black mark, why didn't he take it back to the jointer to re-moved the mark quickly and efficient instead of pissing about with a hand plane.

He also mentioned that metal coming into contact with glue will leave a stain on the wood, so why didn't he have masking tape either side of the joint to stop this happening.

 I don't know who he is, I’ve only watch this one video and I would not recommend following his example. You could well end up having a serious accident and wasting an awful lot of time.

 I do appreciate if you haven't got a jointer you will need too hand plane joints.

 

Okay, rant over.

PS I don't own a hand plane, I think I might have a smoothing plane somewhere in the cupboard but don't think it's been used for years. But there again, if you got a jointer know how to use it, you don't need a hand plane for doing joints.

Danielsguitars

If you read my post Graham I did say that it's probably not the way you'll build guitars

I do suggest you watch the rest though and see the finished guitar 

Danielsguitars

Buying a pre joined cap would be the easiest way to start imo

Danielsguitars

GSPBASSES said:

 I can't get my head round why you would drill into two pieces of wood and leave the drill in to keep it registered.

that method is the what you use for joining acoustic backs and fronts, instead of drill bits I use pins, it's how I got taught
I also use a hand plane and shooting board and a light box to check gaps
Thick caps I use a jointer but still check on a light box

btw I got taught by Mike Hobbs at Merton college and his hand skills and knowledge are fantastic, great craftsman, he's been teaching there 37 years I think

My first 2 piece body was by using a hand plane, it's something I'd recommend doing to start, if you're doing one offs for yourself it's a good cheap way to get things done as long as you have a decent plane and learn to sharpen it and set it up

Another thing is I don't like hand held routers, I know that's what you use mostly, i use an overhead router for everything, how you build and other people build are 2 different things and I'm not going to say how someone should build guitars, people find there own way of working, same as the old argument on neck joints etc 

Kalimna

Without wanting this to digress into a 'my way is the only way of doing something' thread, a well-executed handplane joint will always be superior to that from a jointer. The reason being that however well a piece of timber is put through a jointer, and however fine a shaving is taken, there will, necessarily because of the rotating blades, always be a scalloped surface. This scalloping is absent with a handplane. Using a handplane well isn't easy, but it is quieter and cheaper. Nor is it necessarily quicker, but it means that errors creep in slower too. It is also a good skill to have when building as a hobby and not a high-throughput business.

Cheers,

Adam

Danielsguitars

Kalimna said:k

Without wanting this to digress into a 'my way is the only way of doing something' thread, a well-executed handplane joint will always be superior to that from a jointer. The reason being that however well a piece of timber is put through a jointer, and however fine a shaving is taken, there will, necessarily because of the rotating blades, always be a scalloped surface. This scalloping is absent with a handplane. Using a handplane well isn't easy, but it is quieter and cheaper. Nor is it necessarily quicker, but it means that errors creep in slower too. It is also a good skill to have when building as a hobby and not a high-throughput business.

Cheers,

Adam

that's what I was trying to say but I don't want to go down my way is best route either but it's a very useful skill to have and well said

GSPBASSES

Kalimna said:

 a well-executed handplane joint will always be superior to that from a jointer. 

 With all due respect, that statement is crap, yes I know a hand planed joint is good, but so is a joint off a jointer. 

I don't believe I said my way is the best and the only way. I said his way was wrong and dangerous. You should never ever feed a piece of wood through a joint or planar one-handed.

 

The implication that a jointer can't joint is beyond belief. I've been using my current jointer for at least 15 years, and a very old one that was about 50 years old before that. Never seen a jointer that scalloped the wood. Although I suppose if you feed the wood over fast enough, you might get that. Whereas if you do it properly, it will be as smooth as a baby's bottom. I'm joining body blanks and body caps all the time they come straight off the jointer into the clamps never had a problem.

 

Just to clarify something else, I'm not having a go at people doing hand planning, my criticism was using the jointer incorrectly and then having to resort to hand planning to put it right. I'm quite sure lots of people do hand planning to join body blanks and caps, making very good job of it. I do jointing for a living, or part of it, and jointing by hand, waste time and cost money. Whereas using a jointer takes less than a minute to get a perfect joint every time. Do you honestly think that companies like Fender, Gibson, PRS and every other guitar factory in the world, have people standing at a bench hand planning, or any other woodworking factory.

I repeat, I am not having a go at hand planning.

WezV

Yes yes, many ways to skin a cat and all that.   The "best way" is the one that works with the tools and skills you have available. 

Hand plane and chisel use is a real barrier for a lot of beginners.   Sharpening can be an art in itself before you even consider set-up and use.  Sadly (and I am not accusing anyone here), there is a lot of ingrained snobbery about hand tool use that can put people off.

When I started I used a big old wooden jack plane that worked well most of the time.  when it didn't work I tidied up with some fairly large sanding blocks.

Then I got my planer and used that for most stuff, but its an old second hand one so is good for getting close but I don't often get a perfect join from it.   Normally a scape is enough to get it there.  The hand plane became an ornament

I often join thinner tops with a router these days.  I find it more controllable than the planer or a shooting board with hand plane

randella

WezV said:

Sadly (and I am not accusing anyone here), there is a lot of ingrained snobbery about hand tool use that can put people off.

You're dead right with this one.  I don't see it here which is why I feel comfortable lurking around with a mixed mag of skills and an even more mixed bag of tools and hacky workaround jigs.

For a good e.g. I wasn't sure what a 'shooting board' was so went to have a quick google.  Taking in the first few links, I can either do it with a bit of ply, or I need mahogany, or MDF will do.  It also looks like I need £300 worth of Veritas jack plane.  Or a bench plane.  Or a smoothing plane.  Either way if I haven't been sharpening and tuning planes since the middle ages I'm out of luck.

Last night I managed (and I'm dead pleased with this) to get a bit of MDF 18" long sawn true enough that it was only 0.04MM wider at one end than the other.  Bit of diligent clamping and a crap handheld circular saw.

I'm going to have a crack at a shooting board, I have some bits of scrap wood and a Stanley jack plane kicking around.  If I was of a less have-a-go disposition I'd be put off before I even started.

I'm lucky enough that my dad (a very skilled woodworker) shows me things.  I think I learned to saw reasonably straight with a panel saw from about the age of eight .  He's so patient with me and my endless phone calls about "how am I going to do this", I don't know how he does it.

For reference he uses an ancient-looking planer/thicknesser with a very true bed.  It's also messy as buggery and weighs enough to knock a small planet out of orbit.  I'd love one in my workshop, but as my 'workshop' is actually the utility room I'm not sure it's going to happen.

Kalimna

GSP - Sorry, my post was probably not worded as succinctly as it should have been, and in no way did I mean to suggest that you considered yours was the 'only way'. I did not mean to suggest that a surface fresh from a jointer wouldn't/couldn't work as well as a handplane. Merely that a handplaned joint, done well, will leave a slightly better finish, even though both are perfectly adequate for the job at hand. Now, a jointer (when set up properly, and used with skill) will certainly do a much quicker job of it (I absolutely take your point regarding a production setting, and tried to say that myself). But they *are* noisier, and much more expensive than a handplane. Whilst a Veritas is a lovely bit of kit, a used £30 5 or 5 1/2 will do the job just as well. Yes, handtools need sharpening, but so do jointer blades - although it is easier to send them to a sharpening company.

There is indeed a ridiculous amount of snobbery regarding handtools, but they are useful (and much cheaper) for a hobbyist to accumulate. And as mentioned, much slower to cause error or injury.

To make clear, I am not having a go at machine jointing.

I also fully take your point regarding the 'safety' aspect of the video (though I did have to skim it without sound) particularly the wobbly bandsaw. Eeek. I have to admit that mine is not bolted to the floor, but I think it comes in at about 150kg (about the same as my planer/thicknesser actually) so is fairly stable for the timber sizes I put through it.

Again, apologies if I gave the wrong message earlier.

Adam

GSPBASSES

No Apologies necessary. After all, this is a forum and everybody has their own point of view and should speak it. 

Danielsguitars

I think we need to know the available tools now then work out how he can build a les paul or if he needs other tools etc

He might have everything already needed then it's a case of work out how to get it done with some constructive advice 

He'll soon know what's right for him anyway, you learn alot by mistakes too

TTony

WezV said:

Yes yes, many ways to skin a cat and all that.   The "best way" is the one that works with the tools and skills you have available

Unusually, I think you're absolutely right!



ok, so its not that "unusual"

Kalimna

Learning by mistake is possibly both the most frustrating, brutal and efficient teacher.
 Every home built instrument ive tackled (2 electrics and a pair of concert ukes in rippled maple - try bending thos sides without sweating!) Has been both an improvement and opened up new areas for Mr Cockup to waltz in. Ive tried to incorporate new techniques (e.g. hollowbody on 2nd electric, acoustic instrument and french polish before starting acoustic 6 string, nitro spray including transparent-over-silver) with each attempt with varying degrees of success. But it has all been useful (for instance i now know that indian rosrwood is unforgiving if you forget to drill pilot holes for small screws, i also now know how to fix a snapped screw in said EIR), and hopefully making me a better hobbyist luthier.

My next build will include a carved top and a blueberry-burst type finish on that rippled ash i have. Oh, and it will also have 2 necks

I wonder if it would be possible/reasonable to have a group meet-up of folk on here who build, whether as their profession or as a hobby? 

/end of ramble

Adam

Danielsguitars

I had a bearing router bit slip down when routing the binding once it took a chunk out the body, that was a headscratch to put right but came out great in the end
You had to look hard to spot it too

Corvus

I don't see hand tool snobbery around, for me it's pretty rare to see them being used in guitar making. It mostly seems like a 'how to use power tools as much as possible' sort of feeling.

Got a jointer/planer but I just like hand work, don't have to watch my throughput rate, rather take the slow road and enjoy the scenery. I actually like getting that bit more involved. I like being in the workshop and don't particularly want to fire up a machine and race onto the next thing.

It is slow and a thousand times more work, like there's a fair few hand-dimensioned slabs in my Firebird and it was plenty slow but much more satisfying than machining them. And it's cheap, good s/h planes don't cost the earth, but do need a small amount of time sorting them out. Aside from a recent indulgence mine cost from £0 to £30 max.

All just each to their own way of course, horses for courses. I'm happy being the slow horse. I'm just a hack, I'd love to be as good as the guys hand-making nice acoustics, violins, fine furniture and such, but I still like doing it this way.

Anyway axisus pile in and good luck with it.