CITES UPDATE and hopefully the end of the matter

guitars4you

See notes below that I've just picked up on within the trade

One of the (many) great things about NAMM and the NAMM Show is the International Coalition Meeting that always takes place the day before the event opens. The trade bodies from all over the world , plus other key interested industry and educational partners meet and share current issues and lobbying efforts to create more music makers and to protect and support our industry.

A special focus was given to the forthcoming CITES meeting in Sri Lanka in May this year.

The lobbying coalition on behalf of our industry (see picture) has led to the proposal to EXEMPT ROSEWOOD INSTRUMENTS from the CITES regulatory control.

This formal proposal has already been nominally agreed, but needs the ratification at the meeting in May.

Part of this key amendment is from the recognition by the powers that be that musical instruments were (very unfortunately) “collateral damage” in the rosewood restrictions that were chiefly aimed at stopping illegal logging in the furniture industry.

Anyway, back to the proposal. The amendment is the result of a Canadian and European proposal to:

• Exempt finished musical instruments containing rosewood
• Exempt finished musical instrument parts containing rosewood
• Exempt finished musical accessories containing rosewood

There is also further detail concerning repair and warranty, 10kg limit etc. 

So…

Nothing is guaranteed in this being formally adopted (or amended), but, this clearly has the makings of a major impact on our industry.

In addition, the implications for the UK industry are HUGE in relation to Brexit and the almost unmanageable level of administration that would result if the instruments were still restricted. I attended a DEFRA meeting recently discussing plans for Brexit and one of our UK-based guitar Distributors was able to clearly spell out to the civil servants how many additional applications would be made every week in the post-Brexit ladscape! Needless to say the DEFRA team would not have anywhere near enough staff to cope with the deluge!

danishbacon

Good news and thanks for the update

guitars4you

interesting reference regarding the last paragraph regarding Brexit  - Extra paperwork required for suppliers, dealers and the public if selling from the UK to EU and vice versa

peteri

Is ebony (Les Paul Customs for example) and mahogany (not sure if this is hit) likely to get similar?

guitars4you

peteri said:

Is ebony (Les Paul Customs for example) and mahogany (not sure if this is hit) likely to get similar?

believe only Madagascar ebony is restricted

Certain Mahogany is restricted - Big Leaf Mahogany - Mainly from central America down to Brazil - https://www.cites.org/eng/news/pr/2003/031111_mahogany.shtml

Not sure what has ever happened to 'Ceylon' Ebony - I know Ceylon is now Sri Lanka but Ceylon Ebony use to be a favourite for many years - maybe other luthiers/repairers can update further on this 

Whitecat

Good stuff, thanks for the update!!

tekbow

Is this for all musical instruments containing Rosewood, or just appendix II Rosewood?

guitars4you

tekbow said:

Is this for all musical instruments containing Rosewood, or just appendix II Rosewood?

Brazilian rosewood is a different story all together after a 1992 CITES agreement/ban - An Article 10 certificate is now required to trade products containing Brz rosewood

The above will hopefully allow any Musical Instrument with any other species of rosewood to be sold without issues - Be it a bridge pin on an acoustic, or tuning buttons on a machine head + of course fingerboards

Hope that helps

tekbow

It's not even trading, there might be a move to a different country in the not too distant future for us and I have a PRS with a Braz board that I bought pre-owned.

"Instrument passports" are available but for guitars made post ban, there has to be evidence the wood was harvested pre ban. PRS customer support are unwilling to help.

Brazilian RW is more trouble than it's worth.

I mean I like the thing, it's a beautiful guitar and sounds great. Just not worth the hassle though.

Bill_S

This is great news re the CITIES stuff. That’s been a right PITA for me on a few occasions in the past.

Whitecat

guitars4you said:

Not sure what has ever happened to 'Ceylon' Ebony - I know Ceylon is now Sri Lanka but Ceylon Ebony use to be a favourite for many years - maybe other luthiers/repairers can update further on this 

Although it's not CITES restricted, what we know as 'Ceylon' ebony is now illegal to harvest and sell in Sri Lanka, and illegal to export from India, so not gonna find it easily anyway, unless it's antique/reclaimed, or black market!

Apparently the same species of tree grows in Indonesia - I do wonder if you get 'the black stuff' labelled as Indonesian Ebony then it's the same thing (since Macassar ebony has a more brownish/streaky look to it, despite also being mainly from Indonesia).

guitars4you

Whitecat said:

guitars4you said:

Not sure what has ever happened to 'Ceylon' Ebony - I know Ceylon is now Sri Lanka but Ceylon Ebony use to be a favourite for many years - maybe other luthiers/repairers can update further on this 

Although it's not CITES restricted, what we know as 'Ceylon' ebony is now illegal to harvest and sell in Sri Lanka, and illegal to export from India, so not gonna find it easily anyway, unless it's antique/reclaimed, or black market!

Apparently the same species of tree grows in Indonesia - I do wonder if you get 'the black stuff' labelled as Indonesian Ebony then it's the same thing (since Macassar ebony has a more brownish/streaky look to it, despite also being mainly from Indonesia).

thanks for that - For years Ceylon Ebony was seen as the premium grade option, but barely hear of it today

guitars4you

tekbow said:

It's not even trading, there might be a move to a different country in the not too distant future for us and I have a PRS with a Braz board that I bought pre-owned.

"Instrument passports" are available but for guitars made post ban, there has to be evidence the wood was harvested pre ban. PRS customer support are unwilling to help.

Brazilian RW is more trouble than it's worth.

I mean I like the thing, it's a beautiful guitar and sounds great. Just not worth the hassle though.

I could type a war 'n' peace novel about Brz rosewood after 1992 and discussions I've had with most major companies

As far as I know it is not illegal to own such a guitar, it only becomes an issue when you wish to sell it, or indeed undertake any commercial activity with it  including gigging - But then the authorities have to know about both and they have other issues to attend to, plus they are seriously under staffed - If you are moving a whole load of possessions, inc furniture, guitars and personal belongings to another country, then I can't see any reason why it needs to be disclosed other than 'a guitar' - Not sure what you need to disclose on any shipping container or such personal goods, but I'd have thought a guitar is the least of the custom's worries - Update accordingly

Bottom line after 1992 - Any Gibson, Martin, Collings, Fender PRS Guitar etc that was imported into the EU/UK, with Brazilian Rosewood was done so when the rules were in place but not applied - Both for export from the USA and import to the EU - So by the letter of the law, they were imported illegally - More by neglect/lack of knowledge and lack of any enforcement from the authorities, rather than a deliberate case to mislead - But still illegal - Yet as I said above the authorities are seriously understaffed and have far bigger issues to attend to, regarding illegal animals and plants etc that are imported into the EU/UK

I know with PRS that the wood itself was been used and obtained legally regarding supply and they can build and sell in the USA with no issue - It becomes an issue when exported be it to Canada or the UK etc - As I mentioned rules were in place but no one bothered about them  - Around 2004/5 Wildlife and Fisheries in the USA started to tighten up such rules for export and since then there has been far more press regarding such issues

The problem now is getting an article 10 certificate and the quick answer is you won't get one - In order to apply for such a certificate, DEFRA require the CITES number that was allocated to the original import, that would be issued on the suppliers invoice - In the case of PRS USA to Headline Music (now PRS Europe) no such number was ever issued, but that applies to Martin, Gibson, Fender etc etc  as well - Therefore you can't retrospectively apply for an article 10 certificate - Hope that makes sense - I have asked PRS USA and PRS UK for such CITES numbers in the past and they don't exist - Bottom line is that the EU/UK importers have got away with it and today they are not interested oneIota

Granted in recent years PRS have imported a few special models with paperwork - So now they know the rules and will administer accordingly on new deliveries - But nothing they can do about the past

Another bottom line - 100's of such guitars exists via the aforementioned builders and today most who buy, sell, play, collect just ignore it and get on with it

Hope this makes sense and is not to much of a waffle

SimpleSimon

Excellent news - fingers crossed, thanks @guitars4you ;

tekbow

guitars4you said:

tekbow said:

It's not even trading, there might be a move to a different country in the not too distant future for us and I have a PRS with a Braz board that I bought pre-owned.

"Instrument passports" are available but for guitars made post ban, there has to be evidence the wood was harvested pre ban. PRS customer support are unwilling to help.

Brazilian RW is more trouble than it's worth.

I mean I like the thing, it's a beautiful guitar and sounds great. Just not worth the hassle though.

I could type a war 'n' peace novel about Brz rosewood after 1992 and discussions I've had with most major companies

As far as I know it is not illegal to own such a guitar, it only becomes an issue when you wish to sell it, or indeed undertake any commercial activity with it  including gigging - But then the authorities have to know about both and they have other issues to attend to, plus they are seriously under staffed - If you are moving a whole load of possessions, inc furniture, guitars and personal belongings to another country, then I can't see any reason why it needs to be disclosed other than 'a guitar' - Not sure what you need to disclose on any shipping container or such personal goods, but I'd have thought a guitar is the least of the custom's worries - Update accordingly

Bottom line after 1992 - Any Gibson, Martin, Collings, Fender PRS Guitar etc that was imported into the EU/UK, with Brazilian Rosewood was done so when the rules were in place but not implied - Both for export from the USA and import to the EU - So by the letter of the law, they were imported illegally - More by neglect/lack of knowledge and lack of any enforcement from the authorities, rather than a deliberate case to mislead - But still illegal - Yet as I said above the authorities are seriously understaffed and have far bigger issues to attend to, regarding illegal animals and plants etc that are imported into the EU/UK

I know with PRS that the wood itself was been used legally regarding supply and they can build and sell in the USA with no issue - It becomes an issue when exported be it Canada or UK - As I mentioned rules were in place but no one bothered  - Around 2004/5 Wildlife and Fisheries in the USA started to tighten up such rules for export and since then there has been far more press regarding such issues

The problem now is getting an article 10 certificate and the quick answer is you won't get one - In order to apply for such a certificate, DEFRA require the CITES number that was allocated to the original import, that would be issued on the suppliers invoice - In the case of PRS USA to Headline Music (now PRS Europe) no such number was ever issued, but that applies to Martin, Gibson, Fender etc etc  as well - Therefore you can't retrospectively apply for an article 10 certificate - Hope that makes sense - I have asked PRS USA and PRS UK for such CITES numbers in the past and they don't exist - Bottom line is that the EU/UK importers have got away with it and today they are not interested oneIota

Granted in recent years PRS have imported a few special models with paperwork - So now they know the rules and will administer accordingly on new deliveries - But nothing they can do about the past

Another bottom line - 100's of such guitars exists via the aforementioned builders and today most who buy, sell, play, collect just ignore it and get on with it

Hope this makes sense and is not to much of a waffle

Not waffle at all, it's much as I suspected. I think I'll just sell the thing closer to the time and get something built exactly how I want it.

I'll also never buy another PRS in general.

Jeremiah

Does this affect bubinga as well as rosewood?

IvisonGuitars

This is great news, thanks Mark! I'm getting 2 or 3 enquiries a week from the US regarding builds so this will make things much easier  

gavin_axecaster

No new info since this was announced in October.

http://mmrmagazine.com/mmr-global/mmr-global-gear/breakthrough-at-latest-cites-meeting/

I was hoping we'd at least get clarification on what "finished" means in relation to parts/accessories. If it follows the rules for other lumber (esp. mahogany) "finished" would mean cut and prepared wood, so neck/body/fingerboard blanks would all be covered within the exemption.

"Unfinished" generally refers to non-worked raw lumber.

However assuming it is ratified in May it still won't become law until September, so best part of 9 months of delays and expense still to come.

chris78

As long as it happens, it’s common sense for once. Guitars hardly use a tonne of rosewood and aren’t going to cause much of an issue in the grand scheme of things. I’m all for trying new woods and trying to be more sustainable, but it seemed like a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I wonder how manufacturers will respond? The alternatives haven’t been terribly popular, even if it it’s just down to looks.

designerseye88

One quick question @guitars4you . To me Indian rosewood & Brazilian rosewood can look very similar, How do you think customs could tell accurately between the two? I assume some kind of documentation would need to prove it is legal rosewood and everything else would be considered Brazilian and deemed Illegal? 

guitars4you

designerseye88 said:

One quick question @guitars4you . To me Indian rosewood & Brazilian rosewood can look very similar, How do you think customs could tell accurately between the two? I assume some kind of documentation would need to prove it is legal rosewood and everything else would be considered Brazilian and deemed Illegal? 

valid question - Good Brazilian Rosewood does look different, but in some cases it can look similar - And I'd be amazed if any customs officer can tell the difference - however they don't need to - If you have no proof and they have a suspicion then they have the power to take it away and destroy as they see fit

Certain 'historic' documentation helps to determine it is  Brz rosewood on a vintage guitar 

Model documentation helps to determine it is Brz rosewood on say a PRS Modern Eagle

I sold a used Custom Shop Gibson R9 some years ago - Its serial number was outside that of the period when Gibson re-issued a limited run, but I'm pretty certain it was Brz rosewood - Maybe a few pieces left 'lying around' and Gibson just utilised them - maybe it wasn't but it sure as hell looked like Brz

I agree there can be a grey area at times which doesn't help anyone