Any techie peeps here?

maltingsaudio

Justa an idea as just come off  a festival and now catching up up on sleep and drinking could we get a section on backline crew FOH engineers etc just to bitch about sodding guitarists please?

Cirrus

Man...

Guitarists. Isn't it shit when they try and play music over your 135dB, 45 minute long kick drum solo?

Cirrus

*goes on the offensive*

It'd be cool if you had a section to bitch about guitarists. There could be a meetup with a few techy people I've met in my travels;

The guy that thinks the backline guitar sound should be inaudible in front of the stage, and the guy that told me to turn up my ac30 (which was as loud as the drums at the time) because the guitar mic was feeding back, and the guy that couldn't mic up two amps because of a thing called "phase", and the guy who miked a wooden panel near a speaker on my amp and kept telling me to brighten my sound, and the guy who turned up totally stoned and didn't know what was happening while we coached him through sound check, and the guy who told me I was too bassy, and the one who told me I was too bright, and the one who told me I needed a "solo" boost when I wasn't playing any solos, and the one who asked what the knobs do on my amp so he could set it for me, and the one who asked me to make my distorted tone about 10% the volume of my clean tone, and the one who asked what we wanted in the monitors and gave us the opposite, and the one who gave us exactly what we wanted in the monitors then made it louder during our first song so the entire set was awash with feedback, and the one who saved the feedback only for the most intimate and sparse moments of our set.

Then hopefully the soundmen who know their shit would come in and kill them all.

monquixote

I would suggest using the live or recording sections as appropriate. 

If they overflow we can split out into a separate section.

Drew_TNBD

Most of the live sound guys I've met have been about as techie as a robotic gnat bollock.

PolarityMan

So many seem to get into it cos their too much of colossal arsehole to hold a band together.

chillidoggy

Or they're not thick enough to be a drummer.

mike257

Wow. I'm sure if I happen to do sound for your bands you'll all be consumate professionals who turn up on time, politely wait for the band before you to clear off stage, refrain from pointless noodling during soundcheck and keep the backline at a sensible level, whilst maintaining a realistic expectation of what the house monitor system is capable instead of asking for "loads of everything" and then wondering why you can't hear it over the thundering stage levels.

Some of us actually work hard to make bands sound the best we can within the limitations of the room and the system we're working with - it's a much easier job when everyone works together!

maltingsaudio

+1 Mike! 

It does appear to me that the more experienced the band is the easior the gig goes. 

ESBlonde

Have a dig about on the prosoundweb.com forums. Plenty of tech talk and they can tell a story or two about tossers on stage (even some famous ones).

A great resource on all levels of sound reinforcement.

monquixote

I've done sound and I've played in lots of bands and the one universal truth is that 50% of people in the music industry are total dicks. 

Cirrus

mike257 said:

Wow. I'm sure if I happen to do sound for your bands you'll all be consumate professionals who turn up on time, politely wait for the band before you to clear off stage, refrain from pointless noodling during soundcheck and keep the backline at a sensible level, whilst maintaining a realistic expectation of what the house monitor system is capable instead of asking for "loads of everything" and then wondering why you can't hear it over the thundering stage levels.

Some of us actually work hard to make bands sound the best we can within the limitations of the room and the system we're working with - it's a much easier job when everyone works together!

Don't take it personally mate. All my examples actually happened. To be honest we do try to act professionally and with decency to anyone we're working with, even if they're ruining everything! As for monitors, to keep it simple we like just having vocals, and balancing the backline sensibly. You'd be amazed how many times we get that at sound check, then when we go on stage there's loads of everything blasting out meaning we can't hear anything.

ICBM

monquixote said:

I've done sound and I've played in lots of bands and the one universal truth is that 50% of people in the music industry are total dicks. 

I'd actually say it's less than that, but the ones who are are at least doubly noticeable.

Drew_TNBD

mike257 said:

Wow. I'm sure if I happen to do sound for your bands you'll all be consumate professionals who turn up on time, politely wait for the band before you to clear off stage, refrain from pointless noodling during soundcheck and keep the backline at a sensible level, whilst maintaining a realistic expectation of what the house monitor system is capable instead of asking for "loads of everything" and then wondering why you can't hear it over the thundering stage levels.

Pretty much, yah.

Drew_TNBD

"music industry" does not count the jackoffs you get down the local pub. Everyone I've met in this business has been a professional. Sometimes a little rough around the edges, but they know their shit.

digitalscream

mike257 said:

Wow. I'm sure if I happen to do sound for your bands you'll all be consumate professionals who turn up on time, politely wait for the band before you to clear off stage, refrain from pointless noodling during soundcheck and keep the backline at a sensible level, whilst maintaining a realistic expectation of what the house monitor system is capable instead of asking for "loads of everything" and then wondering why you can't hear it over the thundering stage levels.

Some of us actually work hard to make bands sound the best we can within the limitations of the room and the system we're working with - it's a much easier job when everyone works together!

If you ever do the sound for my band, that's exactly what you'll get...professionalism is one of the key points I consider when recruiting people, and on-stage behaviour is one of the bits that I rule with an iron fist Purely self-interest, of course. If you dick around during setup and soundcheck, then it just increases the likelihood that the sound guy's going to go for a pint during your set...

Being totally honest, though, I've gigged with just as many dickhead sound techs as I have with bands who are dicks to the sound tech.

Danny1969

The trouble is most bands don't actually consider what they sound like important. If they did consider their sound important then they would have their own dedicated FOH engineer to mix them, someone who know's when to push the solo's up, when to pull down the dodgy backing vocal, they know what compression ratio and threshold suits's the singers vocal, what the delay time and repeats should be per song etc. The FOH guy is as important as a band member and should be paid as such in my book. Even if your band doesn't have their own PA it's worth having your own engineer and desk, preferably a nice compact digital desk so you can setup the dynamics, effects, IEM mix's etc and store as a show file. 

In the 3 bands I play in we have dedicated FOH engineers and I do freelance work as an FOH engineer myself for other bands who consider it as important as I do. 

As far as grieve between guitarist and engineers goes it's more to do with personality than professions I think. And the fact as musicians we care about it more than other stuff. 

Cirrus

Just as an alternative point of view, i think if bands care about their sound they'll try to get it right at source rather than slap on some mixing clownfuckery. I've always figured that the best live bands can balance themselves in a way that would pretty much sound like music even without a PA ( vocals excluded of course!)

Danny1969

Cirrus said:

Just as an alternative point of view, i think if bands care about their sound they'll try to get it right at source rather than slap on some mixing clownfuckery. I've always figured that the best live bands can balance themselves in a way that would pretty much sound like music even without a PA ( vocals excluded of course!)

It depends on the kind of music I supose, folk and traditional blues music for example in a small venue doesn't tend to need a great deal of treatment to sound "right" IMO .... but other styles need the same tools they used in the studio to make the live gig sound like the record. To the point that nowadays you can use the same plugins in the desk that were used to mix the record. Take Muse for example, they have a well deserved reputation as one of the best live bands today but there's an awful lot of "Live" post production at the desk end, distresser on lead vocals, vocoder harmonies, triggered samples to beef up the live drums etc. 

I'm not suggesting that the average pub bands needs anything like the above but you will generally get a better sound for the audience if a knowledgeable engineer with some nice gear, who really knows the songs is mixing the gig. It's far more important than the guitarists choice of dirt pedal or some of the other things musicians stress about

littlegreenman

Danny1969 said:

Cirrus said:

Just as an alternative point of view, i think if bands care about their sound they'll try to get it right at source rather than slap on some mixing clownfuckery. I've always figured that the best live bands can balance themselves in a way that would pretty much sound like music even without a PA ( vocals excluded of course!)

It depends on the kind of music I supose, folk and traditional blues music for example in a small venue doesn't tend to need a great deal of treatment to sound "right" IMO .... but other styles need the same tools they used in the studio to make the live gig sound like the record. To the point that nowadays you can use the same plugins in the desk that were used to mix the record. Take Muse for example, they have a well deserved reputation as one of the best live bands today but there's an awful lot of "Live" post production at the desk end, distresser on lead vocals, vocoder harmonies, triggered samples to beef up the live drums etc. 

I'm not suggesting that the average pub bands needs anything like the above but you will generally get a better sound for the audience if a knowledgeable engineer with some nice gear, who really knows the songs is mixing the gig. It's far more important than the guitarists choice of dirt pedal or some of the other things musicians stress about

+1

Having worked both sides of a desk I couldn't agree more. Although to suggest "anything" is more important than a guitarists choice of stompy-stampy things? Pure heresy!

maltingsaudio

Danny1969 said:

Cirrus said:

Just as an alternative point of view, i think if bands care about their sound they'll try to get it right at source rather than slap on some mixing clownfuckery. I've always figured that the best live bands can balance themselves in a way that would pretty much sound like music even without a PA ( vocals excluded of course!)

It depends on the kind of music I supose, folk and traditional blues music for example in a small venue doesn't tend to need a great deal of treatment to sound "right" IMO .... but other styles need the same tools they used in the studio to make the live gig sound like the record. To the point that nowadays you can use the same plugins in the desk that were used to mix the record. Take Muse for example, they have a well deserved reputation as one of the best live bands today but there's an awful lot of "Live" post production at the desk end, distresser on lead vocals, vocoder harmonies, triggered samples to beef up the live drums etc. 

I'm not suggesting that the average pub bands needs anything like the above but you will generally get a better sound for the audience if a knowledgeable engineer with some nice gear, who really knows the songs is mixing the gig. It's far more important than the guitarists choice of dirt pedal or some of the other things musicians stress about

Agree with Danny it really helps if the engineer knows the songs instead of playing catch up and best guess. The festival I just did which started this off was called Satinafield and over the 3 days I mixed 20 bands, alot of them were SKA reggae soul and classic rock so I knew most of the songs and what to do with them but the original bands were a struggle, not so much to get monitoring and volume right but to  get balance and feel right. There were one or two instances where the guitars were so loud there was no where to go with them and despite pointing this out said players wouldn't turn down and would alos add that this applies a smuch to bassists as it does to six stringers. (Also the "silent disco grabbing one of my radio frequncies in the middle of one set didn't help either!)