Oil in paper caps

ellangus

Who knows all about OIP caps?

I've read that they ca make quite a difference to your tone.

Looking to put some in a Les Paul.

Do you need to pay a lot, any suggestions?

Ta

guitargeek62

@ICBM will be along in a few hours to explain why you needn't bother.

They do look nice though.

FelineGuitars

I like them and usually fit the Bkp Jensen versions. I've heard ICBM wax lyrical about how they make no difference but I find that there is something about them...and I do like connecting them in Gibson 50s configuration .

richardhomer

IIRC Gibson used modern ceramic (?) ones housed in 'Bumble Bee' casings and sold them as a very expensive spare.

Everyone thought they sounded much better than modern versions, until someone broke one open and revealed their true construction.

I think they were part of Gibson's 'Kings new clothes' range....

ICBM

They don't affect the tone. At all. Not even the tiniest bit.

If you set up a proper switching test, there's no difference between any cap type as long as the values are the same, at any setting of the tone control. There are also good theoretical reasons why they can't.

But, considering that (as long as you're not paying the sort of prices Gibson were charging) they don't cost much, they are a nice thing to use if you're upgrading a guitar or building one, and I would still use nice caps - not necessarily paper in oil, just ones that are 'appropriate' to the guitar… in the same way as I would use the right style of machinehead keys, knobs, even strap buttons - not because they actually change the sound.

It's also worth remembering that both Fender and Gibson used cheap ceramic caps in the 1960s, and those guitars are now both valuable and good-sounding.

(This applies to guitars - in amps, cap types definitely can and do affect the tone, although not in all locations.)

ThePrettyDamned

+1 @richardhomer. But if placebo is enough to tell you it sounds better, that's fine - really.

Charging some 80 dollars or whatever it was for a ceramic cap in fancy dress is a terrible thing to do as a company though...

Some folk might be convinced because they go from stock wiring to 50s when they switch? Which does make a difference to how things work.

I'm avoiding adding any more as I don't fully understand, but I have a/B'd different caps including paper in oil on the same guitar and it made no difference, even with the tone pot rolled right off to mud land (and therefore the cap being more important). There was no magic extra sparkle full up, no less treble full down and no difference in between.

I made a thread about it on the mr forum and no one was surprised at my findings, but from all the other threads on mlp etc that went nuts over them, and even saying it's worth paying an awful lot of money for an old one to make a mediocre modern les paul sound amazing, I was expecting it to make a difference. Alas, Internet hype.

GuyBoden

The caps in a guitar's wiring are not in the guitar's signal path you hear, they are used to send high frequencies to ground, so you will be paying for expensive foil in oil caps that you will never hear.

randomhandclaps

Capacitors in low voltage circuit + Capacitors going to ground (i.e. not in signal path) = No difference.

A reading from Derek Acorah about the past life of your guitar as a tree is likely to have a more positive effect on your tone.

That said, if it makes you happy and as long you aren't paying overhyped prices for 'vintage mojo' then go ahead.

imalone

richardhomer said:

IIRC Gibson used modern ceramic (?) ones housed in 'Bumble Bee' casings and sold them as a very expensive spare.

Everyone thought they sounded much better than modern versions, until someone broke one open and revealed their true construction.

I think they were part of Gibson's 'Kings new clothes' range....

Spot on. Also many NOS 'bumble bee' style capacitors are film type, not PIO, it was just the casing they used for capacitors back then.
http://store.gibson.com/historic-spec-bumble-bee-capacitors-two-pack/ bargain at $130 for two. I suppose you could argue the price there is for having the 'correct' part when working on a very expensive vintage guitar. A normal PIO wont cost nearly as much, but a mylar one will be even cheaper and more reliable and do the same thing.

OilCityPickups

I have tested just about every cap you can mention ... and I'm with ICBM ... no difference ... save your money ... or give it to me for new pickups lol.
I use Sprague 'orange drops' ... good quality and robust ... as well as being cheap
In fairness I'm in the camp that says: if a component makes you feel better ... you will hear a difference because you will be unconsciously be playing better.

frankus

So what about when the capacitor IS in the signal path, say on a Bass VI bass-cut?

OilCityPickups

Value of cap yes ... component cost (within reason) no ... in my experience.
There is a world of difference between a cheap and nasty cap and a good one like a Sprague. But the price difference is pence.

raulduke

Makes bugger all difference to the tone IMO, but if you don't mind paying the money, and think they look cool then fair does.

Many capacitor types have quite a low tolerance, meaning their values can vary.

The value of the capacitor is the crucial thing and the differences may be what people hear as an improvement in tone over other types of capacitor.

lamf68

All in the mind, having said that one of the first things I do with my guitars is change the pots and caps, nothing like mojo pickups Grey Tiger Repro Caps staring back at you when you open up the control cavity, as @ThePrettyDamned said, if it makes you think it sounds better theres no harm in that, I convinced myself my black lucky pants make me play better whenever we do a show and I wear them every single time, but I'm 100% pissed taking the stage so I could have them on my head and it wouldn't matter what I do!

OilCityPickups

..... I convinced myself my black lucky pants make me play better whenever we do a show and I wear them every single time, but I'm 100% pissed taking the stage so I could have them on my head and it wouldn't matter what I do!

So long as you don't believe it's unlucky to wash them .....

downbytheriver

I've just put some of these in a Les Paul - sounds LOVELY - of course I changed the pickups, all the wiring, pots etc as well... but they do LOOK cool.....

monoamine

hmm
methinks many retailers are already on the "overpriced yet cheap components that make bugger all difference" bandwagon... must be a crazy wide profit margin in that racket!
orange drops or other cheap, consistent caps will do it for me nowadays

WezV

tone difference with caps of the same value- none

 

but you will find that better caps are closer to the stated value, and its the value that can lead to tonal differences

 

when i did my tests i had difficulty matching caps on value as all he cheap ceramic disk ones were well out.  The 22's were averaging much closer to 15.  for that reason i am happier to pay a little more for orange drop or better

mudslide73

WezV said:

tone difference with caps of the same value- none

 

but you will find that better caps are closer to the stated value, and its the value that can lead to tonal differences

 

when i did my tests i had difficulty matching caps on value as all he cheap ceramic disk ones were well out.  The 22's were averaging much closer to 15.  for that reason i am happier to pay a little more for orange drop or better

I think this view goes a long way to explaining the perceived improvements people hear... I noticed a great improvement when I did mine but it might be a coincidence that I swapped the pots, pickups and strings at the same time.

EdGrip

I'm pretty certain big fancy caps don't sound any different to a tiny cheap cap of the same (metered) value, but they are much nicer and easier to work with in a guitar-wiring context, so I say go for it as long as you're not paying much. Sprague orange drops are dead cheap, easy to find, historically appropriate, and easy to work with in a control cavity. Look on eBay, Amazon or audiocap.co.uk OR, if you really want a paper in oil cap so that you can look at it and be pleased, once, before you put the cover on and forget all about it, Marc at Mojo Pickups has his own branded ones, or Shugz might be inclined to sort you out with leftovers for not much even though he's out of the harness game.

EdGrip

Also, if you haven't, you must try your Les Paul with 50's wiring - I find it much more dynamic.