So I thought I'd bring my valve & analogue pedals kit to practice last week, having just been turning up with the Pod HD500x and a Magnum44 and plugging into whatever's there....and it was weird. I expected it to be a million times better but in fact I really struggled. Mainly with volume levels. I was too loud, then too quiet, then too loud, then too quiet. Then I couldn't control things the way I wanted - struggled to roll off gain easily...dirtboxes were too loud through the clean channel or not enough / too much gain. I just felt really stressed by the whole thing.
Soundwise, the leads sounded really good...the rhythm was less stand out better, but still good. I wouldn't say the sound quality was stellar to the point where all the other hassle was worth it.
There's no doubt (in my mind anyway) that a valve power amp makes a huge difference to how the thing sounds. I definitely think it's worth the expense of going down that route. But on balance, I think the convenience and controlability of modelling is just so good...
Comments
Also my DS1 started doing weird things - seemed to be getting odd crackly trails on the end of notes. Mind you, that sounds pretty nasty even when it's working. I just couldn't get the boost volume right. And then I stomped on my MXR microamp and this seemed to cause my volume pedal to partially vomit out the guitar cable. Took me ages to figure out what had happened.
I don't understand why you can buy a whole valve amp for 250 quid or less but you can't buy a simple valve power amp for that kind of money.
Depends on the amp.
A jcm 800 has dynamics for days. A fender twin is amazingly responsive to input. A Princeton is a super dynamic amp at moderate volume.
Crank up a tweed champ or an ac15 and dynamics are replaced by compression and everything sounds the same. A peavey bandit has more dynamics at the same volume.
I think a valve amp is simply a great thing to experience but on a day to day basis there are a lot of compromises. They just don't sound that great at bedroom levels if you're using the same amp you use for gigs and the fact that the character of the tone changes so much as the volume changes makes it difficult to find consistency. They're also a pain in the backside to cart around everywhere and if you're considerate of your neighbours, late night playing is completely out. Conversely, modellers can give you all of that convenience and consistency but the actual tone is really rather sterile and digital. I tried a few over the years and they always ultimately left me wanting a valve amp again. Having said that, times are certainly changing. Now that I've switched to the Atomic AmpliFire I'm finding that for the first time I don't want a valve amp again. Actually, I can't imagine why I'd ever want to mess around with a valve amp again this thing is so good. The technology is moving very fast and that helps, though undoubtedly the fact that my Atomic has more processing power than any unit I've used before also helps. Paying the extra for the Atomic over something like a Pod or GT and sacrificing some of the options has been the best thing I've ever done. I still wouldn't say a Boss GT-100, Digitech RP1000 or Line 6 Pod HD is a legitimate alternative to a valve amp without sacrificing tone but an Atomic is certainly a viable alternative.
the Helix is very good at simulating that sag and dynamic range even through a relatively cheap power amp
i have to admit I hated the HD500X. I just couldn't get a workable tone out of it
It depends on the context - if you only ever use a crunchy rhythm sound and a dirtier lead sound then that approach works fine. For anything more complex with a different correlation between gain and volume it doesn't.
The thing I usually seem to struggle with when using a digital amp is the less natural hand dynamics to tone response - that's the best way I can describe it. Almost all valve amps and many analogue solid-state amps do it very naturally, so you can set-and-forget the amp, and do the other changes (within a particular type of sound) by playing differently. Digital amps tend not to do that so well, and I find myself constantly fiddling with the settings.
I didn't find that with the THR100, but I'll bear Cabicular's warning about the dynamics in mind before I buy one… it may not work for me at gig volume either. It sounds like the same problem I have with compressor pedals - I like them at home or for recording, but hate them for playing live - I can never get them set right, they're either too loud or too quiet.
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
With a traditional setup I get the volume of the amp to the top end of where it needs to be. Maybe even a bit louder than it should be and then back my playing off so that when I do dig in it is loud enough but I can quite it down when the singing starts
Sounds like you do a similar thing
I think to echo what others have said, that this was one of the biggest disappointments for me in the previous generation of modellers (HD etc) - when I tried the Helix there were two things I focussed on:
1. How the pedals interact - ok it sounds like a Tubescreamer, but does it impact the next pedal/amp in a way I'd expect a TS9 to? And the answer was always no
2. How are the dynamics of the amp? Can I change drive with my technique and my guitars volume. Again the answer was always, a bit.
I don't have a Helix, but my take on the current generation is that's the problem they've solved. I owned every previous iteration of Line 6 products and sold each one - for the two points above and also that to a greater or lessor degree they masked the character of my guitar.
Sounds like you've got the same, the modeller has masked gain structuring - as I remember they did. So you had an amp set with a load of headroom and then you stuck an overdrive in front of it with a volume boost - so it got louder.
I think you (me) often forget about gain structuring in modellers.
A valve amp doesn't need to react as you describe, but it will if it's not compressing. All amplifiers do the same thing.
With the Pod series, there was much less grey - it was pretty black and white that's all.
An easy way to solve the problem is to stick a compressor in your chain, and use this to simulate the compression of a valve amp sweating away, makes stuff more controllable and natural at lower volumes, and is the only reason I use a compressor
Hope this helps
What we're saying in this discussion is that, as players, we respond to the way our equipment responds. That's one of the reasons why we buy different amps, effects, and guitars.
It's never ending. Even when you've been playing happily for months you'll find an evening when it doesn't work, and you have to adjust your playing. It might be the room, or the drummer's new snare, or the bassist being too loud. There are a couple of factors which have made it more difficult to adjust when using modelling. Dynamics and compression and EQ have been the main culprits. Conversely, those are the things which have made it easier to turn up the volume without changing the sound too much.
The consistency of a modeller is very important. Very few bands now rely on stacks of Marshalls to create volume as they use the PA for that because it allows for greater control of the sound. When my last band just used the PA for vocals, the ultimate sound was severely compromised because each band member ends up fighting someone else. We eventually dropped the volume of the amps right down, mic'd them and just used the PA for volume and everything became better. The problem was that a loud valve amp was never at its best at that sort of volume so it became pointless having one. My Atomic AmpliFire can go straight to the PA with my own amp simply acting as a monitor and especially if I load specific IR's, I have total control of the sound the audience hear from my guitar as I can even choose IR's with specific mic placements.
I get the appeal and dynamics of a valve amp but these days, any small advantage they may have is easily outweighed by their many limitations and compromises. My Atomic sounds VERY good and VERY like a real valve amp so I'm happy. It may be argued that such units have a slightly more hifi quality to them but even that doesn't matter. 99.9% of your audience couldn't tell a boutique valve amp from even a mid-price modelling amp anyway and as everything they usually hear is hifi sound anyway, the chances are they'll actually prefer the modelling amp over the real thing. I freely admit that there is 'something' about a valve amp at full tilt that is magical but it's so rare you have the opportunity these days to hit that musical nirvana that it becomes a waste of time, effort and money. With my Atomic I can experience a wide variety of great tones at any venue and at any volume and I can do it with remarkable consistency while not breaking my back and saving space. For me, there's no going back.