Will University fees change?

ToneControl · July 2017

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-40569202

my view has been that fees should be free, but only for subjects and institutions that are providing something the country needs
i.e. a small number of places for very good unis for abstract / low-demand / creative courses, a lot of places for courses proven and agreed to be in the interest of the UK (e.g. vocational, and high-demand non-vocational courses), and less support for low-reputation institutions)

chillidoggy · July 2017

There's too many people going to university when in fact what we need is far more good-quality apprenticeships and vocational training, and colleges to support them, not universities.

I'd be happy to see 'useful' courses subsidised. Engineering, in particular.

Axe_meister · July 2017

But who decides what the country needs? Industries will feel left out if a degree they like to see keeps its fees, let's say the advertising industry likes to take on artists, but they will be seriously pissed if all art courses are subject to a fee.

We need more vocational style courses with more industry funding with fewer students going to uni for academic courses (they do not suit many people).
A vocational qualification however will need to have the same stutus of a degree, so you don't get the old Uni/poly snobishness we had in the 90s

chillidoggy · July 2017

It should be industry-driven, and I think companies have a moral responsibility to train young people, rather than simply poach other staff.

I think a lot of the snobbiness went out of degrees when the world and his wife ended up with them. And so did their value in the workplace.

Funkfingers · July 2017

A long time ago, in a Britain far, far away, the theory was that the costs of a degree would be recouped over a lifetime of high salary income tax returns.

At the same time, students from other countries receiving education in British institutions were being fleeced for tuition fees or, more likely, their governments were.

The old model was that British graduates would live, work and pay taxes in Britain. Graduates from other countries would depart, benefitting from the reputation of whichever institution they had attended.

The present arrangement, under which fees apply to all students, drives the education industry down the path of financial expediency. They will run the courses that generate the highest income rather than those that might be of interest, use or social benefit. The objective nowadays is self-perpetuating solvency. Education be damned!

A skeptic might argue that one reason for the growth in higher education student numbers is a scam to reduce unemployment statistics. Graduates emerge into a double bind - qualified for jobs that do not exist and considered over-qualified for those jobs that do exist. The nett result of much of this increased education is a generation all the better equipped to express their dissatisfaction with their lot.

It would have been more productive to reintroduce conscription.

Legionreturns · July 2017

To be honest, the focus of education needs to change completely. It's gone far too far down the road of pure, almost religious focus on 2 or 3 core subjects at the expense of everything else. Right from early primary / KS1 children are taught that all that matters is literacy and numeracy. There's a token nod towards practical subjects like art and design but that's all it is. Secondary schools are withdrawing support for subjects that have no bearing on their league table position because ofsted inspections focus on those core academic subjects, and how you deal with SEN kids. Average Joe, who is ok at maths and English but in years gone by would have been asked about his career ambitions and helped to focus his curriculum towards carpentry / graphic design / construction / engineering / mechanics etc now just gets told he's average and should focus on improving maths and English skills. It's thoroughly depressing working with kids that you know could be so much more than another drone but you're not given the time to focus their passion.

Gulliver · July 2017

A university degree is generally less valued these days because there are so many universities popping up. Tuitions fees were in part, and attempt to confer some value back into degrees. unfortunately, I don't think it's worked - there are still too many people leaving mediocre universities with mediocre degrees, but deemed to qualified for mediocre jobs.

mellowsun · July 2017

The idea brought in by Blair that 50% of the country needs to go to university is daft.

The result is that people are studying courses that add little value academically, intellectually or commercially. Many undergraduates don't even seem to want to be there (based on my experience of teaching them!).

digitalscream · July 2017

Axe_meister said:

But who decides what the country needs? Industries will feel left out if a degree they like to see keeps its fees, let's say the advertising industry likes to take on artists, but they will be seriously pissed if all art courses are subject to a fee.

I don't think so. They didn't feel left out before fees were introduced...in fact, I think a lot of businesses would be grateful for a reduction in "noise" applicants. It's often underestimated how disruptive and frustrating it is to try to recruit someone for a role, only to find that they all have degrees when at least half really aren't up to the job at all; given that, in most sectors, a degree is the highest qualification available, you'd expect it to be a differentiator. Call it elitism if you want (many do), but the simple fact is that degrees no longer perform that function.

Getting rid of fees would remove the incentive for universities to run high-profit/low-value courses with insanely low entry requirements, which in turn would remove the "noise" candidates.

This isn't about elitism, either; there's no need to remove those people from the education system at all. Local colleges and the like can then run more vocational and apprenticeship-style courses, which seem to be sorely needed. We've currently got a generation of people who all expect cushy office jobs starting at £28k/year, with fewer and fewer going for the skilled careers that actually keep the country running.

guitars4you · July 2017

My first thought is that I can't see how a 2 tier system can work fairly based on some courses are free and others aren't

I do sit divided on this issue as ultimately someone has to pay - When Brown/Blair introduced student fees, albeit at a lower price, many universities were close to bankruptcy, so something had to change

Today a student can easily pile up a 45K debt over 3 years - yet if they don't earn a certain amount this is never paid - I know of 2 customers, both now over 30, who have never paid back 1p - Long term who stands this loss - there is talk in the USA that student debt is now 1.6 trillion dollars - That is pushing towards a similar level to the UK national debt - And this growing unpaid USA student debt is in danger of collapsing and will cause significant economic issues

Yet as a business owner I have an issue with this 45K unsecured debt - I could not borrow 45K unsecured, for an open ended period at such a low interest with such a low monthly repayment plan - And pay back nothing for a while if income is low

Fretwired · July 2017

There are a number of problems.

In theory students should pay fees - you can add a university tax to them, like NI, which is geared to what you earn. However, universities need funding so whilst the students won't get fees the government won't be saving any money. If fact they will pay more as students will need a maintenance grant.

There's a backlog - if fees stop tomorrow is the built up fee of £100 billion going to be written off? I doubt it as the government doesn't have £100 billion. However, if I were a student why should I pay off my loan? I expect a legal challenge could be mounted. THis could give any government a serious headache.

Too many universities offer poor degree courses. Too many students aren't up to a rigorous university course. This means degrees from some universities are worth more than others.

There aren't enough students in the subjects employers need - for example we have a major shortage in people with maths degrees.

Too many graduates with average degrees have devalued getting one - a number of big employers, like PWC, are taking 18 years olds with good A level grades and funding them through professional qualifications like law and accountancy.

I'd cut the number of universities and fund those with the academic skills to do well. Bring back the Polytechnics offering degree level courses in engineering, computing, technology etc. These courses could be done via a combination of work and study with support from employers (this used to happen in the 1970s.

hywelg · July 2017

This was one of Tony Blairs stupider ideas. And he had a few.

Not every youngster is academic and yet the higher education system was manipulated to provide 'degrees' for people who should have been learning a trade.

This has been hugely damaging to the value of a degree and of course the whole hypothesis that people with degrees earn more and therefore pay more tax is thrown into reverse due to the oversupply of degree equipped people.

And as for Jeremy Corbin offering to remove all University fees, well, he's a plain old liar, and will be rumbled in due course. He has no way of funding it, UNLESS we cut the number of University students by half (not in itself a bad idea) or more. The old Polytechnics need to be reoriented into providing proper technical education like they were set up to do like media studies, hairdressing, music production, and leave the universities to take the academically gifted and educate them properly in science, engineering, mathematics, et al. And it all needs to be funded by a tax on business, one where businesses can exempt themselves from the tax if they take on proper apprentices on properly rigorous training programmes.

And as for JC and his loooony left Labour Party saying they want to write off all student debt!!!. £100billion.. We can pay for that how??? Oh yes, the rich. 98% marginal tax rates here we come...

Jalapeno · July 2017

I think they have to change, but as with everything else it'll be drowned out by Brexit until it's over.

And yes to more vocational training & apprenticeships rather than "pretend" degrees.

And yes to staged fee abolition based on national need - physics, maths, & engineering, also modern languages as priorities.

And yes to the return of Nursing tuition bursaries.

Sporky · July 2017

Legionreturns said:

Average Joe, who is ok at maths and English but in years gone by would have been asked about his career ambitions and helped to focus his curriculum towards carpentry / graphic design / construction / engineering / mechanics etc

You can't get through the first term of an engineering degree if you're "ok at maths". You need to have trigonometry, calculus, imaginary numbers and matrix stuff absolutely down (including combinations thereof). I went in with a B at A-Level maths and still struggled - it's that advanced. Fortunately I was smart enough to ask for help and got it - and was fine from that point.

Engineering is not in the same category as the other careers you've mentioned; sadly years of calling anyone with a toolkit an "engineer" and an utter failure on the part of the IET and RAE to defend the profession means that a lot of people think that engineering is running a lathe or tightening up the bolts on a bridge.

Myranda · July 2017

Fretwired said:

There are a number of problems.

In theory students should pay fees - you can add a university tax to them, like NI, which is geared to what you earn. However, universities need funding so whilst the students won't get fees the government won't be saving any money. If fact they will pay more as students will need a maintenance grant.

There's a backlog - if fees stop tomorrow is the built up fee of £100 billion going to be written off? I doubt it as the government doesn't have £100 billion. However, if I were a student why should I pay off my loan? I expect a legal challenge could be mounted. THis could give any government a serious headache.

Too many universities offer poor degree courses. Too many students aren't up to a rigorous university course. This means degrees from some universities are worth more than others.

There aren't enough students in the subjects employers need - for example we have a major shortage in people with maths degrees.

Too many graduates with average degrees have devalued getting one - a number of big employers, like PWC, are taking 18 years olds with good A level grades and funding them through professional qualifications like law and accountancy.

I'd cut the number of universities and fund those with the academic skills to do well. Bring back the Polytechnics offering degree level courses in engineering, computing, technology etc. These courses could be done via a combination of work and study with support from employers (this used to happen in the 1970s.

PWC

mellowsun said:

The idea brought in by Blair that 50% of the country needs to go to university is daft.

The result is that people are studying courses that add little value academically, intellectually or commercially. Many undergraduates don't even seem to want to be there (based on my experience of teaching them!).

Gulliver said:

A university degree is generally less valued these days because there are so many universities popping up. Tuitions fees were in part, and attempt to confer some value back into degrees. unfortunately, I don't think it's worked - there are still too many people leaving mediocre universities with mediocre degrees, but deemed to qualified for mediocre jobs.

Legionreturns said:

To be honest, the focus of education needs to change completely. It's gone far too far down the road of pure, almost religious focus on 2 or 3 core subjects at the expense of everything else. Right from early primary / KS1 children are taught that all that matters is literacy and numeracy. There's a token nod towards practical subjects like art and design but that's all it is. Secondary schools are withdrawing support for subjects that have no bearing on their league table position because ofsted inspections focus on those core academic subjects, and how you deal with SEN kids. Average Joe, who is ok at maths and English but in years gone by would have been asked about his career ambitions and helped to focus his curriculum towards carpentry / graphic design / construction / engineering / mechanics etc now just gets told he's average and should focus on improving maths and English skills. It's thoroughly depressing working with kids that you know could be so much more than another drone but you're not given the time to focus their passion.

Fretwired · July 2017

Jalapeno said:

I think they have to change, but as with everything else it'll be drowned out by Brexit until it's over.

And yes to more vocational training & apprenticeships rather than "pretend" degrees.

And yes to staged fee abolition based on national need - physics, maths, & engineering, also modern languages as priorities.

And yes to the return of Nursing tuition bursaries.

Brexit is finished. Won't happen.

Myranda · July 2017

Fretwired said:

Jalapeno said:

I think they have to change, but as with everything else it'll be drowned out by Brexit until it's over.

And yes to more vocational training & apprenticeships rather than "pretend" degrees.

And yes to staged fee abolition based on national need - physics, maths, & engineering, also modern languages as priorities.

And yes to the return of Nursing tuition bursaries.

Brexit is finished. Won't happen.

Well something will change... Unless we guarantee EU students the right to come and study... We will close a fuck tonne of courses or universities.

chillidoggy · July 2017

Certainly, Blair has a lot to answer for, and Corbyn's Utopian 'No-Fee' system was a vote-winner but won't do a damn thing to resolve the educational issues we currently have, and in any case would probably bankrupt the country. Still, moaning about them won't change the current situation we find ourselves in.

Clearly we are all going to have an opinion which relates to our own particular field, and in my case I would like to be able to take an engineering apprentice on, but in order to do that, the trainee would have to do a day-release at a suitable recognised training establishment (i.e. college). Sadly, there are none anywhere near, or even reasonably close by. This has been the case for the last 6 years. Bottom line - the money is sat waiting to train someone, but I cannot do it because I cannot guarantee a Modern Apprenticeship certificate at the end of it. This is frustrating, because I can do nothing about it, and believe me, it's not for the want of trying.

I also found an issue with secondary schools and their careers advising. As the expectation these days is that youngsters will go to university, I suspect there is less emphasis placed on school careers advising. I say this because on two such occasions in the past, I mailshotted every single local secondary school to let them know I was offering an engineering apprenticeship, yet, had such a dismal response from them. The responses I did get, were best described as half-hearted.

The subsequent applications were best described as 'worrying', of those that applied, only about 8 had any half-decent maths/science grades, and at interviews, we had to remind some of them to breathe. This to me means the schools (at least around here, and for what I need) are not turning out employable candidates, so the system not only has problems in higher education, but also at more basic levels.

Fretwired · July 2017

chillidoggy said:

I also found an issue with secondary schools and their careers advising. As the expectation these days is that youngsters will go to university, I suspect there is less emphasis placed on school careers advising. I say this because on two such occasions in the past, I mailshotted every single local secondary school to let them know I was offering an engineering apprenticeship, yet, had such a dismal response from them. The responses I did get, were best described as half-hearted.
The subsequent applications were best described as 'worrying', of those that applied, only about 8 had any half-decent maths/science grades, and at interviews, we had to remind some of them to breathe. This to me means the schools (at least around here, and for what I need) are not turning out employable candidates, so the system not only has problems in higher education, but also at more basic levels.

Tell me about it. You can also blame the parents. I sat in a meeting at an FE college that was being supported by Airbus - engineering apprenticeships which were fully funded with jobs paying in excess for £30K by the time an apprentice was 24 if they got the qualifications and experience. How many applicants do you think they got? The mood was best summed up by a parent who said he wanted his son to go to university and not mess around with a useless apprenticeship.

Those that did apply needed extra tuition as their maths skills weren't up to scratch. Airbus may leave the UK, not because of Brexit but because they can't attract skilled workers.

chillidoggy · July 2017

Fretwired said:

chillidoggy said:

I also found an issue with secondary schools and their careers advising. As the expectation these days is that youngsters will go to university, I suspect there is less emphasis placed on school careers advising. I say this because on two such occasions in the past, I mailshotted every single local secondary school to let them know I was offering an engineering apprenticeship, yet, had such a dismal response from them. The responses I did get, were best described as half-hearted.
The subsequent applications were best described as 'worrying', of those that applied, only about 8 had any half-decent maths/science grades, and at interviews, we had to remind some of them to breathe. This to me means the schools (at least around here, and for what I need) are not turning out employable candidates, so the system not only has problems in higher education, but also at more basic levels.

Tell me about it. You can also blame the parents. I sat in a meeting at an FE college that was being supported by Airbus - engineering apprenticeships which were fully funded with jobs paying in excess for £30K by the time an apprentice was 24 if they got the qualifications and experience. How many applicants do you think they got? The mood was best summed up by a parent who said he wanted his son to go to university and not mess around with a useless apprenticeship.

Those that did apply needed extra tuition as their maths skills weren't up to scratch. Airbus may leave the UK, not because of Brexit but because they can't attract skilled workers.

What, you mean the vacancies aren't being filled by all those highly-skilled immigrants they're always so fond of telling us we need?

Shocking!

Myranda · July 2017

chillidoggy said:

Fretwired said:

chillidoggy said:

I also found an issue with secondary schools and their careers advising. As the expectation these days is that youngsters will go to university, I suspect there is less emphasis placed on school careers advising. I say this because on two such occasions in the past, I mailshotted every single local secondary school to let them know I was offering an engineering apprenticeship, yet, had such a dismal response from them. The responses I did get, were best described as half-hearted.
The subsequent applications were best described as 'worrying', of those that applied, only about 8 had any half-decent maths/science grades, and at interviews, we had to remind some of them to breathe. This to me means the schools (at least around here, and for what I need) are not turning out employable candidates, so the system not only has problems in higher education, but also at more basic levels.

Tell me about it. You can also blame the parents. I sat in a meeting at an FE college that was being supported by Airbus - engineering apprenticeships which were fully funded with jobs paying in excess for £30K by the time an apprentice was 24 if they got the qualifications and experience. How many applicants do you think they got? The mood was best summed up by a parent who said he wanted his son to go to university and not mess around with a useless apprenticeship.

Those that did apply needed extra tuition as their maths skills weren't up to scratch. Airbus may leave the UK, not because of Brexit but because they can't attract skilled workers.

What, you mean the vacancies aren't being filled by all those highly-skilled immigrants they're always so fond of telling us we need?
Shocking!

Actually if British kids aren't filling the slots... Then...

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