Beware Famous Vintage Dealer

CMW335 · May 2018

barnstorm said:

Unless I’m misunderstanding, that either means that they let the guitar go for less than the reserve without consulting the seller (£3400 minus, say, 13% commission); or that the amount they stood to gain by fibbing was small (£600 if they gave £3200 to the seller and, I guess, claimed they’d taken less of a cut on £3400 than previously agreed vs £494 if they’d just taken 13% on your best offer of £3800).

Poor form either way, but the second scenario is also weird. It just doesn’t seem worth the potential hassle.

I get the appeal of old guitars but it seems like people often have a miserable time trying to acquire them! Hope you're enjoying the guitar now. What is it, if you don't mind saying?

It’s a 1968 J200 and will probably be easy to find out the dealer from that lol.

Basically after already accepting and banking my £3800 on the Friday they continued dialogue with the seller through to the Tuesday (when I confronted them) saying the negotiation was ongoing and the highest offer they had was £3500 their intention I believe to pocket £300 before any commission. Does seem a lot of risk and hassle for what would equate to a small amount for them in one deal which makes me think they do this more often.

CMW335 · May 2018

mr-mac said:

Yeah agree.. Trying to bump price seems like reasonable from a selling/commission point of view and you were willing to pay so seems like still an ok price for what it is.

telling seller the price agreed was a lot lower than it actually was is pure and simple fraud however you dress it up. They were trying, by sounds of it, to increase their share quite a chunk over the agreed fee for the sale.

For me personally that's a pile of pish and shows dealer as someone you potentially would want to avoid. Cos if they will just pile on some extra for them and keep quiet then what else will they just not tell you????

Exactly

p90fool · May 2018

It depends on whether the commission was an agreed fee or an agreed percentage.

If it's the latter then it's fraud, they have to disclose what they were paid.

BloodEagle · May 2018

edit - thought it was a notorious former owner of Music Ground - it’s not

CMW335 · May 2018

The commission was was a percentage so they were pocketing £300 before taking their commission from the fabricated lower sale price of £3500

Limehouse_Blues · May 2018

completely bent and potentially fraudulent had you not succeeded in escaping the transaction.

It's pathetic how low some will stoop for an extra buck.

jf122 · May 2018

This one?

http://www.hanksguitarshop.com/product-details/1968-Gibson-J200

If so then it’s Justin Harrison. Well known scam merchant and convicted fraudster. More info here:

http://www.davidjpym.com/page459.html

CMW335 · May 2018

Its not Justin Harrison guys.

jf122 · May 2018

Why keep everyone guessing then?

CMW335 · May 2018

Think I have enough validation from others that these guys haven’t acted in customers best interests and don’t like playing games so will name them. It’s New Kings Road Vintage Guitars

I wanted to let the sale complete to the point the seller had the lower amount paid to him so we had conclusive proof however understandably he wasn’t comfortable with that. Now they claim they were always going to disclose the higher sale price which as ridiculous as that sounds I can’t prove.

Anyone who has used these guys for a consignment in the past I would ask for evidence of the sale price. Anyone currently with a consignment I would consider pulling their guitar

Moe_Zambeek · May 2018

Flow chart:

is it a vintage dealer? --> yes —> you are being ripped off.

With the obvious addition that in this case it applies to buyer *and* seller.

CMW335 · May 2018

Moe_Zambeek said:

Flow chart:

is it a vintage dealer? --> yes —> you are being ripped off.

Lol true. Inflated prices I am comfortable with if it’s a price I am happy to pay then no harm. Blatant fraud is another matter and if I could prove they were never going to disclose the actual sale price it would be with the police.

jf122 · May 2018

Ridiculous that they would risk being caught out for an extra £300 but like you said if they do it regularly those extra pounds add up. Just reinforces what I already thought about vintage guitar dealers. I will now only buy either player’s grade vintage guitars privately or new guitars from respectable dealers like Mark at guitars4you. There’s too much risk involved in the high end vintage market.

lovestrat74 · May 2018

Wow! Have you seen the prices of their guitars? Surely they are making enough commission. Most overpriced shop in London

brooom · May 2018

Typical dodgy behaviour, which is sadly seen as normal nowadays.

Hattigol · May 2018

This one presumably...

https://reverb.com/item/10818043-gibson-j200-custom-1968-sunburst

Certainly sounds like fraud. The difficulty you've got in proving that is that they didn't get chance to complete the fraud as the transaction didn't ultimately happen through them. In much the same way that a store detective won't pounce on you if he sees you put something in your coat until you step out of the shop door, as no theft has been committed until you do.

I very much doubt the Police would do anything as they would no doubt be met with the "of course we were going to tell the seller" line but as you say, lessons learned.

p.s. Good reduction by the way!

CMW335 · May 2018

Hattigol said:

This one presumably...

https://reverb.com/item/10818043-gibson-j200-custom-1968-sunburst

Certainly sounds like fraud. The difficulty you've got in proving that is that they didn't get chance to complete the fraud as the transaction didn't ultimately happen through them. In much the same way that a store detective won't pounce on you if he sees you put something in your coat until you step out of the shop door, as no theft has been committed until you do.

I very much doubt the Police would do anything as they would no doubt be met with the "of course we were going to tell the seller" line but as you say, lessons learned.

p.s. Good reduction by the way!

Yes thats exactly why I can't take it that far but certainly can warn others of my experience.

Thanks re the guitar. The sale price in store was actually £3995 so that Reverb price is a con in itself, anyone who uses reverb knows the fees will never equate to £1k

Hattigol · May 2018

lovestrat74 said:

Wow! Have you seen the prices of their guitars? Surely they are making enough commission. Most overpriced shop in London

What do you mean overpriced? They have a Gretsch Falcon which Adam Ant owned for a mere £10,000!
Holy guacomole....

HarrySeven · May 2018

Broad-brush* mistrust list:

Antiques dealers
Used-car salesmen
Estate agents
Vintage guitar dealers

*Obviously, this doesn't apply to all individuals!

octatonic · May 2018

This happens all the time.
It is the stock script for most shops selling consignment guitars.
I'm surprised people didn't know.

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