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Might put out a little teaser video before then though.
Then again, I would never have a middle overhead, more than one stereo room, (occasionally a crunched up mono to go with the stereo room) and three snare top mics.
Also, a 52 and a 602? on the floor toms?
I’d be interested to hear what that all sounds like, regardless.
I know now it’s literally none of my business, but reading the list of what’s mic’d where, I’d definitely lose some channels/option paralysis and repurpose some of the less important channels’ microphones to do a more suitable job.
TLM103 rather than D112 on the kick out for starters, and lose some snare top mics and use them on the toms.
IMO that looks like lots of mics just because.
Not trying to trash the setup at all, I just think it seems like a strange mic choice on each source, when some mics would be maybe better elsewhere.
Plus, literally no one wants to mix 21 channels of drums.
Kick In
Kick Out
Sn Top
Sn Bot
Hat
Rack
Floor
Floor
OHL
OHR
Room L
Room R
Mono room
13. Done. Cleaner. Simpler.
Some great overheads and rooms and you could probably go down to 8 mics quite easily.
Hehe.
Needless to say some of the “drummers” I’ve worked with over the years have required me to “edit” their stuff quite hard.
And of course, when I say “edit” I mean “completely re-program using Superior Drummer”. Haha.
To be fair I’m working with a band at the moment that have provided me with MIDI for the drums and are happy for them to stay that way/programmed. They took videos of their drummer playing through the songs and then edited the midi data to reflect his performance as closely as possible.
I’m then going to fine tune some of the velocities and quantisation to further humanise the odd bit here and there, and Superior Drummer 3 is going to provide me with the multi tracks. Personally, I like working this way. Gives us a lot of flexibility, and we can tweak kick and snare patterns etc right up until the vocals are finished and I’m ready to mix everything. Plus, when done properly it’s pretty much indistinguishable from the “real” drums. They’re just expertly recorded, clean, in phase, tight, consistent etc etc.
Here's a clip of all of the mics:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lgaq8fmonnsi6ua/TruthEscapes_QuickExport.wav?dl=0
Here's a clip of directs, overheads, PZMs, and Sub:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/thbmlb3xwsvy8lj/TruthEscapes_QuickExport_SmallSelection.wav?dl=0
Raw mics. No additional EQ or compression, just what was tracked. No de-bleeding of any tom or snare tracks. There is a UAD Distressor on the Mono Kit channel, so the width isn't as pronounced in the 'all mics' clip as it is in the 'small selection' clip.
These clips are completely unedited aside from comping together three takes - one for the toms at the start, with the cymbal pings on their own set of tracks (separate from the toms for mix purposes), and then there is a new take for the actual beat that comes in.
Simply put - not going to be using all of the mics at the same time, and even if I do, it wont be all of the time.
To expand though... I like to capture a variety of tones and then use specific ones in specific sections of songs. Mono rooms for example, I like to use during tom fills and breakdowns, and maybe during a chorus if I need a bit of extra mush to crunch up the kick and snare. It really depends on what the song calls for. I may not even using the same "mix" of microphones for every song. Again, it depends on what the song calls for.
RE: Phase.
Phase is really down to the direct microphones on the kit versus the overheads. Most other microphones are so far away from the kit (room mics, pzm's, etc..) that at that point you're not concerned with screwing the impact of the drums, rather you're concerned with getting the right flavour when adding those mics in. Sometimes dragging them ahead in time after the fact can change the tone, which I sometimes do, but I try to get it right at the source as much as I can.
So you're right, there is no way to get that many microphones completely in phase for every single instrument. But the reality is, you don't need to. As long as there aren't huge problems, you're good to go.
RE: Overheads.
Our drummer has a lot of cymbals, and I wanted to be sure that I captured the entire spread. This was something I stole from the Joe Barresi interview with MixOnline, he talks about having a 3rd overhead in the middle and how he automates the level of it for specific fills and cymbals. Again, it depends on what the song calls for.
RE: Number of mics.
I might have an intro to the song where everything is chilled out. So I drop the kick in from the mix and only use the kick out. Then it might explode into a more heavy section, so I bring the kick in back into the mix to get the extra snap required for fast double kick bits. That's one example. Likewise with the snare mics - dynamic might sound good for one part, condenser for another.
RE: TLM103.
The TLM sounds really good as a kick out microphone, but I prefer it as a mono room mic situated just about waist height a few feet away from the kit. It gets an overall impression of the kit, which I then put through a Distressor to crush the absolute living shit out of it. This channel is my "intensity" channel, which I can ride the fader of and bring it up for bits where I want the drums to punish a bit more. It's not an always on mic for me.
RE: Literally no-one wants to mix 21 channels of drums.
Well... erm.. I do. Sorry!
RE: Going down to 8 mics.
Sure, you absolutely can do that, and there probably will be sections of songs where only 8 mics will be running live. In fact all the cymbal swell sections and the hihat only sections, I'll probably just come down to OH's only.
RE: It looks like a load of mics just because.
Not really. I have something in mind for each one or pair of mics. Whether they will make the final cut is a completely different thing, but I know what I'm doing. Not to be too defensive or anything, coz really I do enjoy these sorts of debates, but I kinda know what I'm doing. I record drums for a living. If you've bought any of the FXpansion BFD packs made in the last 5-6 years, I recorded them (with my production partner).
I'm always eager to learn new things though. I don't know absolutely everything about tuning, recording, or playing drums. But it is a world I've been immersed in for over a decade now. I'd like to think I know some stuff!
It's a little amusing to me that you're questioning the number of microphones I've got, and then recommend people use Superior Drummer 3, which probably has more mics available than what I'm using!
PS: I do use Superior 3.0 myself, coz I love drum software and drums in general. I prefer recording them above any other instrument!
I'll probably use our transient designer to take off a bit of that tail, sorta depends what happens under a bit of compression.
Finally, Waves have a cool plugin called Torque which can work well for sorta changing the fundamental pitch of a drum. So I could whack that on the kick if it becomes a problem, but I don't think it will.
The big question I am struggling with right now is how much editing and tightening to do. Some sections where he's going double kick mad might benefit from it, but I also kinda like the idea of leaving it as natural as possible.
The eternal struggle.
I’ve decided it’s all about how it feels and to try to not overthink it from a philosophical angle because if done well not many are going to worry about what was done to the audio
And yeah, I wasn’t intending to trash any of the workflow or anything like that, I’ve just found that whenever I go a bit mad with loads of mics on a kit, no matter how many times I measure distances etc, I’ll never be 100% happy with the phase. And yeah. Totally agreed. The phase relationship between rooms and close mics is less important, but I have found it can mess with your low end if you’re not careful.
I’m not a drum specialist, but I am an engineer/producer/mixer and have been for the last 10-12 years or so. So I guess it’s just down to taste really. I like mixing quite quickly. The more channels I have to work with, the more choices i have to make, which can just halt my workflow. I like options, of course, but not to the extent of it hampering the journey to the final mix.
Re: SD3. I never use all of the channels. But occasionally I'll have certain drums sent to certain ambient channels so I've got a dedicated printed room reverb for that specific drum. And, I'll always use a real kit in a real room when I can.
But of the 700 or so tracks I've worked on, I've come across my fair share of less than amazing drummers. At that point I ask myself the question: "What's gonna be the least painful? Edit this or re-program?" haha.
I did a forumers band last year, just mixing, and ended up using sampled drums quite heavily. I went with sd3 coz I love their tracker view where you can load in your drum tracks and get a load of layering going. Big fan of toontrack despite being a competitor!
TalkBack mic turned out to be a great snare mic. We took samples too so I can layer up some one shots if need be.
I might try out some of the Andy Wallace ideas. I noticed when checking out the Rick Beato video on his stuff that he quite severely gates the snare. Much more than I ever do, I'm always obsessed with keeping as much snare tail as I can but this leads to more bleed sneaking through.
Hahaha, yeah well... I needed to do it lmao.
Drum editing sucks donkey balls.