Council permission to erect fence - confused!

Haych

I live on an ex social housing estate.  It's not quite hell but you can see it from here!

My house is a corner plot which means I have a bit more land adjacent to the house than most of my neighbours.

When I bought the property there was a low boundary fence, about 18" high around the edge of the gardens, literally just 15 ft planks of wood secured to small concrete posts.  However, it was badly maintained and mostly falling down so in an effort to tidy the place up a bit and avoid anyone from potentially falling over it and making a claim I removed it completely.

It worked in as much that it was no longer an eye-sore but the consequence was that it's now seen as common ground for dogs to shit on, so I'd like to erect a low level feather-edge boundary fence of about 3' 6" to enclose the garden and keep out wandering animals, except cats, nothing keeps those buggers out!

I've had quotes and settled on a contractor to do the work but today I was helping a friend move house and during the day we got talking about alterations and I told him of my intention to erect a fence.  He advised that I check me deeds as there may be a clause in there that prevents me from doing so.

Just dug out my deeds and sure enough there's a clause in there which states:

"That without the previous consent in writing of the council no shed outhouse or any other structure of any kind whether temporary or permanent shall be erected nor shall any caravan be allowed to stand on or in front of the building line along the frontage of the property or any adjoining property nor shall any alteration be made to the front boundary wall of the property".

Apart from the grammar of that sentence sucking it kind of suggests I need permission in writing to erect the fence as it would come under "other structure".

Is that right, or as there was once a fence there can I just erect one to replace it anyway?

Since the government relaxed planning laws I did check whether I would need planning permission and the regs state that planning permission would only be needed to erect a fence taller than three feet if it ran alongside a public highway.

So is gaining council permission the same this as planning permission, or is it something quite different and less formal than a full planning application?

Any guidance and experience greatly appreciated.

Sporky

Put up a proper 6' fence, and if they come to investigate it or complain, pelt them with the dog poop you've been collecting.

Foster

Build the fence on next door's bit of land

Sambostar

Take a trip down the planning office and ask them.  Covenants, Easements, Bylaws, Town Planning, Councils.  it's all the essentially same thing. First port of call is walk around the estate and see what others have done, don't dob anyone in innocently enough as a cited precedent as that is bad, but if there are a few fences maybe have a chat and then go and see the planning office..  If there are none, chances are they will say no.

Jimbro66

This is a subject that often causes confusion. Here is a link to the Planning Portal (official government site) that clarifies:

https://www.planningni.gov.uk/index/advice/advice_apply/advice_apply_homes/advice_around_home/advice_home_fences.htm

HOWEVER, the clause you refer to in your deeds is probably a covenant. Covenants restrict what you can do with a property and they are often a result of planning restrictions imposed by the local authority when they gave planning permission for the building development (your house).

I'd suggest you have a word with your council's Planning Department and tell them that you plan to erect a fence adjoining the public footpath (presumably) to replace a deteriorated existing fence and that the new fence will not be more than 1 metre (3'3") high, as is permitted. They should be able to look up your address and tell you whether there was a particular planning restriction that prevents you from doing that. That sort of restriction happens quite a lot because Planning Officers want to see everything open-plan with no fences or hedges. That's because they live on another planet where there are no shitting dogs or irritating kids.

Haych

Foster said:

Build the fence on next door's bit of land

There is no land next door to build on.  There a run of about 25' from my house up to the footpath but one side is mine and the other side belongs to the council, although my next door neighbour does look after it.

The rest of the boundary runs adjacent to a public footpath - hence the problem with dogs.  Every bugger on the estate seems to have one and they all seem to walk past my place on the way to the moors.  If the dog decides to lay an egg then the owners seem to look the other way then carry on.

TheBlueWolf

Ask the council. Assuming you end up talking to a human*,.they should be able to figure out what the situation is and be of some help.

*I'm an Enfield Council tenant, and regularly have to sit through "Enfield Council are ace because....." scripts, before actually getting anywhere.**

**"Getting anywhere", is a moot point, because I'm an Enfield Council tenant.....

Haych

Jimbro66 said:

This is a subject that often causes confusion. Here is a link to the Planning Portal (official government site) that clarifies:

https://www.planningni.gov.uk/index/advice/advice_apply/advice_apply_homes/advice_around_home/advice_home_fences.htm

HOWEVER, the clause you refer to in your deeds is probably a covenant. Covenants restrict what you can do with a property and they are often a result of planning restrictions imposed by the local authority when they gave planning permission for the building development (your house).

I'd suggest you have a word with your council's Planning Department and tell them that you plan to erect a fence adjoining the public footpath (presumably) to replace a deteriorated existing fence and that the new fence will not be more than 1 metre (3'3") high, as is permitted. They should be able to look up your address and tell you whether there was a particular planning restriction that prevents you from doing that. That sort of restriction happens quite a lot because Planning Officers want to see everything open-plan with no fences or hedges. That's because they live on another planet where there are no shitting dogs or irritating kids.

Thanks bud, I'll take that onboard and have already sent an email to the planning office asking for guidance.

I won't expect to hear anything back until the middle of next week though, and then it will probably just be a direction to call a number and talk to such-and-such.

There's a chap up the road who has a whacking great fence erected about a month ago, and that's on top of an already existing dwarf wall, must be about eight feet tall or so.

The chances of me erecting the fence and somebody making an issue out of it is slim to none but it would probably become an issue if I ever chose to sell the house.  A jobsworth solicitor would probably make a big deal out of it and require some sort of indemnity.

Jimbro66

Haych said:

There's a chap up the road who has a whacking great fence erected about a month ago, and that's on top of an already existing dwarf wall, must be about eight feet tall or so.

If that's alongside a public footpath he's taking a very big chance. People get away with that because planning officers don't have time to patrol areas looking for unpermitted development but if someome complains to them or if they happen to pass by while visiting another nearby property they'll give the guy a hard time. Guaranteed.

Covenants on properties are often overlooked or ignored. I had a house on a '70s estate that was subject to lots of covenants, mostly arising from original planning restrictions. No fences or hedges was one of them but my house (and many others) had tall hedges around all three sides of the front garden. No one said anything in the five years I owned it and there were no queries from solicitors when I came to sell it.

Possibly the most stupid of the many covenants on that property was that no-one was allowed to park any kind of commercial vehicle on the estate. That was totally disregarded by the large numbers of builders, plumbers, electricians, etc, etc who lived there and parked their vans. As I said, planning officers live on another planet.

TimmyO

A fence is not a structure. If you were prohibited from having a fence, it would say that specifically. 

(My Mum had a tiresome boundary dispute some years back)

A fence up to 6' high needs no planning permission. 

Jimbro66

TimmyO said:

A fence up to 6' high needs no planning permission. 

That's not correct if it adjoins a public road or footpath. A one metre restriction applies then. See the link in my post above.

Haych

TimmyO said:

A fence is not a structure. If you were prohibited from having a fence, it would say that specifically.

If it's not a structure then what is it?  The wording "any other structure of any kind" seems pretty catch-all in my view.

In any case the same clause also states "nor shall any alteration be made to the front boundary wall of the property".  It also makes mention of "boundary walls hedges and fences" in section 1 of the same schedule so I can only conclude that the use of the term "boundary wall" does not refer to the actual front wall of the house itself.

WezV

Haych said:

Jimbro66 said:

This is a subject that often causes confusion. Here is a link to the Planning Portal (official government site) that clarifies:

https://www.planningni.gov.uk/index/advice/advice_apply/advice_apply_homes/advice_around_home/advice_home_fences.htm

HOWEVER, the clause you refer to in your deeds is probably a covenant. Covenants restrict what you can do with a property and they are often a result of planning restrictions imposed by the local authority when they gave planning permission for the building development (your house).

I'd suggest you have a word with your council's Planning Department and tell them that you plan to erect a fence adjoining the public footpath (presumably) to replace a deteriorated existing fence and that the new fence will not be more than 1 metre (3'3") high, as is permitted. They should be able to look up your address and tell you whether there was a particular planning restriction that prevents you from doing that. That sort of restriction happens quite a lot because Planning Officers want to see everything open-plan with no fences or hedges. That's because they live on another planet where there are no shitting dogs or irritating kids.

Thanks bud, I'll take that onboard and have already sent an email to the planning office asking for guidance.

I won't expect to hear anything back until the middle of next week though, and then it will probably just be a direction to call a number and talk to such-and-such.

There's a chap up the road who has a whacking great fence erected about a month ago, and that's on top of an already existing dwarf wall, must be about eight feet tall or so.

The chances of me erecting the fence and somebody making an issue out of it is slim to none but it would probably become an issue if I ever chose to sell the house.  A jobsworth solicitor would probably make a big deal out of it and require some sort of indemnity.

They will just find another reason to force you into an indemnity policy!

ICBM

Plant a blackthorn hedge.

Jimbro66

ICBM said:

Plant a blackthorn hedge.

Great idea. My parents had one of those open front gardens with no fences or walls and they were constantly pestered by big kids banging on their front window at night and then running off. I planted a dense bed of spikey Berberis in front of the window, allowing just a narrow path for window cleaning but still effectively stopping the idiots from continuing their window banging.

Roland

Remember that you are not erecting a fence. You are re-erecting a fence which previously stood there. Simply put it back.

EricTheWeary

Seeking clarification from the council is the right thing to do but unless you get a major jobsworth or your fence/hedge causes an obstruction in some way you haven't made clear here I can't see a problem. A covenant needs to be enforced by someone with the threat of a civil court action and, ultimately, civil court. The council probably aren't interested (you aren't their tenant) or have the time or money and it seems doubtful any of your neighbours would want to risk having to pay court costs. The court can also say a convenant is unreasonable and throw it out anyway.

There is a covenant on our estate against fences on front gardens but almost every house has a hedge or fence between neighbours and some have something at the front of the property. Our front garden slopes toward the road so we would need a 30' fence to remove our house from public gaze! Most of our estate was built by Barratt Housing in the 70s so I can't see them sending the lawyers in if someone parks a caravan on the drive or grows a privet hedge. 

As a dog owner if Sir Smellalot poops on a corner plot I do pick it up. There is a house on our estate where the owner has decided to put up threatening posters on his fence (to dog owners) and that irks me somewhat so I'd let him shit all over their grass. I know it isn't pleasant and isn't necessary but it is what happens so if you buy a house with a corner you probably shouldn't be surprised when it happens (by 'you' I mean the people on our estate). A low fence or hedge would stop most dogs and most people would understand that. 

HAL9000

From your original post it doesn't sound as if you're putting up a 'new' fence. You're replacing an old one. Do you really need permission for that?

randella

There's a covenant on my house that states I'm not permitted to make or fire bricks on the property. Never worked out why.

boogieman

Our deeds say we're not allowed to keep goats or pigs. Doesn't mention tigers though, I might give it a go. 

Foster

Just an idea, try to keep an eye out so that you can figure who is letting their dog crap on your garden. That way you can go to their house and slit their dogs throat in front of them.

If you do it when they are on your property then you'll make a big mess, doing it at their house makes the mess their problem.