Like driving? Like driving fast? I'm going to ruin your evening.

Sporky

strtdv said:

at the time I felt the police should be doing more useful things than catching people doing 90 at 1am on empty motorways

If no-one sped then they could have been.

digitalscream

Cirrus said:

marantz1300 said:

the cops are out in force with their radar traps in Essex at the moment.

all over the brow of a hill , hiding in drives.

nicking people for doing 35 in a 30 on roads that have no accidents

It's just another council tax.

If only there was some way, some method drivers could use, to avoid getting a speeding fine. That'd show the greedy money grabbing bastards.

Sometimes, though, there just isn't.

There's one dual carriageway in Peterborough which goes from 70mph to 40mph....which is fine, except that the 40mph sign is just the other side of a blind bend with thick trees either side. There's actually not enough time to slow down safely between the earliest point where you'd see the sign and the sign itself, and there's a speed camera just on the other side of it. The best you can do without standing on the brakes (and risking a pileup because the person behind you can't see the sign yet) is about 50mph by the time you get to the limit change.

Basically, everybody gets hit by it the first time they drive that road. It's utterly insane.

ThePrettyDamned

ToneControl said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

ToneControl said:

Well yes, don't hang out in a cluster of lorries as they have reduced visibility and are more likely to be involved in an accident. That's precisely *what* the right lane is for - overtaking. 

But it's zoomwombles who cruise at 80-90mph who speed right into my sphincter while I'm overtaking that row of dangerous lorries, safely, who are convinced they're so important they must reach destination 5 minutes faster than anyone else. Then they might start flashing me - or swearing at me - maybe they'll even honk their horns, because they can't believe someone would only be doing 70mph to overtake vehicles limited to 56mph. That someone has slowed me down by all of ten seconds, perhaps even twenty! 

They are the ones who actively stop people using the right lanes correctly - they use it to cruise at high speed, not what it's for. And that encourages others to do it. 

Raise the limit to 80mph? Great idea! Then these same zoomwombles who currently do 80-90mph will be happy, right? Nah mate, they'll insist it's safer for them to cruise at 90-100mph. Because zoomwombling is safe. So long as no silly law abiding folk decide they need to overtake some lorries, and if they do, you can just flash and beep them until they get back into their lane, right? Perhaps you'll unnerve them and make them make a mistake! What fun. So long as they don't hold up anyone important. 

If not for drivers like that, perhaps the lanes would be used more appropriately and they'd be less accidents that cause 1 hour + journey time increases while they scrape bits of BMW off the tarmac. 

Yes, I appreciate there are dangerous slow drivers too, who sit in the middle lane at 56mph because they don't like going any faster. They fall into the same category as those who compulsively speed - they're simply bad drivers. 

my opinions were formed by 25 years of commuting between 60 and 150 miles a day on motorways
I asked about  5-6 policemen what speed is ok, and they all said 80mph will attract no attention, unless you go overtaking policecars. Given the fact I've never had a speeding ticket, they were clearly correct

Typically people spread out and improve the capacity and safety of the road by using all 3 lanes, are you proposing that the outside lane should remain empty, even when the inside 2 are full already?

I do find it odd when people inconsiderately pull out in front of me because it's the convenient moment for them to overtake, regardless of the fact they're doing 55-60, whilst you're doing 70 and thus have to brake, along with everyone behind you

This is what happens when people get too precious about using the outside lane:
http://home.bt.com/images/middle-lane-hogging-136398900059303901-150626103115.jpg

anyway, to be pedantic: see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/motorways-253-to-273 ;

"Rule 264

You should always drive in the left-hand lane when the road ahead is clear. If you are overtaking a number of slower-moving vehicles, you should return to the left-hand lane as soon as you are safely past. Slow-moving or speed-restricted vehicles should always remain in the left-hand lane of the carriageway unless overtaking. You MUST NOT drive on the hard shoulder except in an emergency or if directed to do so by the police, traffic officers in uniform or by signs."

So, if there are 25 slow cars/lorries in the middle lane, I drive past them all until there is a safe gap, I don't overtake one at a time, in some OCD fashion, forcing back into the a small gap in the middle lane after every manoeuvre.

It's clear to me that the safety of a motorway is derived from the lack of need to change lanes, so the less lane changes made, the safer everyone is. In my years of 2 hours a day commutes, I have observed little problem on the motorways - everyone sticks at the speed they prefer, and almost everyone is considerate and courteous. However, driving at weekends and holidays with inexperienced town-drivers is a different matter, far more defensive driving is needed

Snipped. 

You've proved my point - overtaking a line of slow moving vehicles is *exactly* what the right lane is for. 

You can do that at 70mph - then if someone pulls out on you (those dastardly bastards wanting to also overtake!) you won't have to slow down much to accommodate them. 

But at 80, perhaps you don't take your foot off, you use the brake. So... Why bother? 

You can overtake at 70mph. I'm not suggesting, at all, that you weave in and out (which is dangerous). 

 "I do find it odd when people inconsiderately pull out in front of me because it's the convenient moment for them to overtake, regardless of the fact they're doing 55-60, whilst you're doing 70 and thus have to brake, along with everyone behind you" 

Yup, that's inconsiderate and poor form, so why increase the risk of other bad drivers hitting you by going faster? If you're going 80, you'll brake harder. Is that safer for everyone behind you? Will you brake in time? 

That said, if it's convenient for them it suggests they've seen a gap - so perhaps coming off the accelerator for a few seconds in anticipation would save you that problem... 

Congrats on not being caught. That's great - police probably won't pick you up as there are bigger fish than those who are going a bit quick but are probably generally safe. But that *doesn't* excuse bad driving. 

Teetonetal

marantz1300 said:

the cops are out in force with their radar traps in Essex at the moment.

all over the brow of a hill , hiding in drives.

nicking people for doing 35 in a 30 on roads that have no accidents

It's just another council tax.

nah, more of an idiot tax.
The more you pay, the bigger the idiot you are.

guitarfishbay

That's a poorly designed road though and not representative of a typical speeder who does in fact know they are speeding 

ThePrettyDamned

Of course, I'm also not suggesting that if you obey the limit you're immune from accidents. Merely suggesting that, no matter your justification, going faster does *nothing* positive for road safety. 

ToneControl

ThePrettyDamned said:

Congrats on not being caught. That's great - police probably won't pick you up as there are bigger fish than those who are going a bit quick but are probably generally safe. But that *doesn't* excuse bad driving. 

Using cruise control, and keeping out of trouble on a motorway at 80 mph is not "bad driving"

ThePrettyDamned

ToneControl said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

Congrats on not being caught. That's great - police probably won't pick you up as there are bigger fish than those who are going a bit quick but are probably generally safe. But that *doesn't* excuse bad driving. 

Using cruise control, and keeping out of trouble on a motorway at 80 mph is not "bad driving"

Okay sure, I'll give up 

ToneControl

ThePrettyDamned said:

Snipped. 

You've proved my point - overtaking a line of slow moving vehicles is *exactly* what the right lane is for. 

You can do that at 70mph - then if someone pulls out on you (those dastardly bastards wanting to also overtake!) you won't have to slow down much to accommodate them. 

But at 80, perhaps you don't take your foot off, you use the brake. So... Why bother? 

You can overtake at 70mph. I'm not suggesting, at all, that you weave in and out (which is dangerous). 

 "I do find it odd when people inconsiderately pull out in front of me because it's the convenient moment for them to overtake, regardless of the fact they're doing 55-60, whilst you're doing 70 and thus have to brake, along with everyone behind you" 

Yup, that's inconsiderate and poor form, so why increase the risk of other bad drivers hitting you by going faster? If you're going 80, you'll brake harder. Is that safer for everyone behind you? Will you brake in time? 

That said, if it's convenient for them it suggests they've seen a gap - so perhaps coming off the accelerator for a few seconds in anticipation would save you that problem... 

Congrats on not being caught. That's great - police probably won't pick you up as there are bigger fish than those who are going a bit quick but are probably generally safe. But that *doesn't* excuse bad driving. 

I'd bet that if you'd be liable for the insurance claim if you chose to move into the right lane, at 70, and someone doing 80 hit the back of your car - when you "see a gap", you're under an obligation to assess it accurately, not just pull out and assume anyone already in that lane will have to brake. Plenty of people pull out of side roads without care too: a stately home near has an exit onto a 60mph road, people frequently pull out slowly with no gap, and you have to brake to 35 or 30 mph 

ToneControl

ThePrettyDamned said:

Of course, I'm also not suggesting that if you obey the limit you're immune from accidents. Merely suggesting that, no matter your justification, going faster does *nothing* positive for road safety. 

it can do. It keeps me away from lorries. 
I've seen more than enough news stories about lorries driving straight over passenger cars and killing whole families instantly

ThePrettyDamned

ToneControl said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

Snipped. 

You've proved my point - overtaking a line of slow moving vehicles is *exactly* what the right lane is for. 

You can do that at 70mph - then if someone pulls out on you (those dastardly bastards wanting to also overtake!) you won't have to slow down much to accommodate them. 

But at 80, perhaps you don't take your foot off, you use the brake. So... Why bother? 

You can overtake at 70mph. I'm not suggesting, at all, that you weave in and out (which is dangerous). 

 "I do find it odd when people inconsiderately pull out in front of me because it's the convenient moment for them to overtake, regardless of the fact they're doing 55-60, whilst you're doing 70 and thus have to brake, along with everyone behind you" 

Yup, that's inconsiderate and poor form, so why increase the risk of other bad drivers hitting you by going faster? If you're going 80, you'll brake harder. Is that safer for everyone behind you? Will you brake in time? 

That said, if it's convenient for them it suggests they've seen a gap - so perhaps coming off the accelerator for a few seconds in anticipation would save you that problem... 

Congrats on not being caught. That's great - police probably won't pick you up as there are bigger fish than those who are going a bit quick but are probably generally safe. But that *doesn't* excuse bad driving. 

I'd bet that if you'd be liable for the insurance claim if you chose to move into the right lane, at 70, and someone doing 80 hit the back of your car - when you "see a gap", you're under an obligation to assess it accurately, not just pull out and assume anyone already in that lane will have to brake. Plenty of people pull out of side roads without care too: a stately home near has an exit onto a 60mph road, people frequently pull out slowly with no gap, and you have to brake to 35 or 30 mph 

Yeah, I'm not on about that though-you should never have to brake that slow (although going from 70-40 takes less time than 80-40 so you're still not making a case for safety). 

Again, shitty drivers are shitty drivers. Don't pretend (edited for typo) that 80mph is safer than 70mph - in the example you have just given, you'd be more likely to create a pile up at 80 than 70. Who gives a shit who's fault it is when you've potentially been seriously injured? 

guitarfishbay

I don't recognise this as the standard series of events. What I see more often is a person choosing to drive too close someone who was already in the right lane far ahead of them, and drivers behind them also driving too close.

You can't drive the car behind you, only your own and it's going forwards... a lot of these issues are caused by poor decisions by right lane drivers as much as poor decisions from slower drivers.

ToneControl

it's not as simple as just considering speed
- if you're in the outside lane with other cars at the same sort of speed, with clear visibility ahead, then the worst that can happen is that you all collide with little difference in momentum - minor injuries, but messed up cars. The cars can generally brake at a similar rate.
I will quite seriously avoid driving in a lane full of lorries where possible, they obscure your view, and you could be sandwiched between 2 of them quite easily - they weigh 15-20 times more than a car, and cannot stop quickly. Also they are far harder to control as they perform emergency braking
I would much much rather have a pile up in the fast lane with 80mph cars than in the inside lane with 60mph lorries

I had a little google:

http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/media/21-10-2013-lorry-fatalities-research
"new analysis has shown that last year HGVs were implicated in more than half of fatal motorway accidents and one-in-five fatal accidents on A-roads, continuing negative trends over the last five years."

This is what I would expect - car-on-car accidents on motorways being safer - hence HGVs causing most deaths on motorways

ToneControl

by the way, one of my definitions of bad driving is when other people have to take evasive action because of your driving. I always aim to avoid this - especially with lorry drivers who need their braking space in front - so many drivers just pull into this, thinking they are doing the right thing by not spending as long in the overtaking lane.
I've had idiots overtaking me pull in so fast I can't see their rear bumper as they pull in front of me.

guitarfishbay

ToneControl said:

by the way, one of my definitions of bad driving is when other people have to take evasive action because of your driving. I always aim to avoid this - especially with lorry drivers who need their braking space in front - so many drivers just pull into this, thinking they are doing the right thing by not spending as long in the overtaking lane.
I've had idiots overtaking me pull in so fast I can't see their rear bumper as they pull in front of me.

Yes I agree with this definition.

However it's not realistic if people are going to drive 10-20mph+ higher speeds than other people. You can check a mirror and blind spot, see nothing, then seconds into your overtake someone doing a much higher speed is way too close to your rear bumper.

Not everyone drives a powerful car that overtakes instantly, plus there's not always space to safely pull in. Not all motorways give perfect visibility - there are still hills and corners, and also drivers changing lanes. I firmly believe that the speeding driver is in the wrong in this scenario regardless of legal limits... they're choosing to drive faster than the reasonable flow of traffic and choosing to drive too close.

I see more of that guy than the slow guy pulling out (though I do see plenty of both) 

ThePrettyDamned

guitarfishbay said:

I don't recognise this as the standard series of events. What I see more often is a person choosing to drive too close someone who was already in the right lane far ahead of them, and drivers behind them also driving too close.

You can't drive the car behind you, only your own and it's going forwards... a lot of these issues are caused by poor decisions by right lane drivers as much as poor decisions from slower drivers.

A much more succinct way of putting what I'm trying to say. 

It's quite scary seeing how close people are willing to get in freely flowing 70mph traffic on the A14. I'd hand out fines and even bans on people who do not leave a minimum of a 2 second gap. 

Of course, the faster you go, the longer that gap needs to be - your braking distance increases. Tailgating is hugely dangerous, and occurs all the time when I'm overtaking a long line of lorries, despite going at 70mph. 

Sporky

ToneControl said:

I've seen more than enough news stories about lorries driving straight over passenger cars and killing whole families instantly

That such incidents get into the news tells you that they're very rare.

ThePrettyDamned

ToneControl said:

by the way, one of my definitions of bad driving is when other people have to take evasive action because of your driving. I always aim to avoid this - especially with lorry drivers who need their braking space in front - so many drivers just pull into this, thinking they are doing the right thing by not spending as long in the overtaking lane.
I've had idiots overtaking me pull in so fast I can't see their rear bumper as they pull in front of me.

I absolutely agree with you, but that only works if everyone is driving within the same speeds. I also see lots of people pulling in too soon (usually followed by the offensively loud horns that lorries are fitted with). I see that *more* than people pulling out at bad times (although I have seen it plenty). 

guitarfishbay said:

ToneControl said:

by the way, one of my definitions of bad driving is when other people have to take evasive action because of your driving. I always aim to avoid this - especially with lorry drivers who need their braking space in front - so many drivers just pull into this, thinking they are doing the right thing by not spending as long in the overtaking lane.
I've had idiots overtaking me pull in so fast I can't see their rear bumper as they pull in front of me.

Yes I agree with this definition.

However it's not realistic if people are going to drive 10-20mph+ higher speeds than other people. You can check a mirror and blind spot, see nothing, then seconds into your overtake someone doing a much higher speed is way too close to your rear bumper.

Not everyone drives a powerful car that overtakes instantly, plus there's not always space to safely pull in. Not all motorways give perfect visibility - there are still hills and corners, and also drivers changing lanes. I firmly believe that the speeding driver is in the wrong in this scenario regardless of legal limits... they're choosing to drive faster than the reasonable flow of traffic and choosing to drive too close.

I see more of that guy than the slow guy pulling out (though I do see plenty of both) 

All of this! 

ICBM

If I'm in the outside lane overtaking something at 70mph and someone comes up behind at 80 and wants me to go faster they can just piss off. I'm not breaking the law just so they can. (And not *just* because it's breaking the law.)

And if they run into the back of me, then it *will* be legally their fault.

VimFuego

ICBM said:

If I'm in the outside lane overtaking something at 70mph and someone comes up behind at 80 and wants me to go faster they can just piss off. I'm not breaking the law just so they can. (And not *just* because it's breaking the law.)

And if they run into the back of me, then it *will* be legally their fault.

same here, they can flash their funky blue lights and blare their silly multi toned horn all they want, I aint't moving for no fucker.