Strat pick-up question.

fftc

Need some advice about the pick-ups in my Strat please.
It is a 2007 US Standard that I bought s/h a few years back. The previous owner told me that he had aftermarket pick-ups in it but had replaced the standard ones for the sale. I've never been 100% happy with with the tones I've got from it though. Always sounded a bit 'thin' to me in all positions and too treble-y on the bridge especially. (My lack of ability probably doesn't help but that's another topic!)
I recently gave the guitar a going over and the P.O.s soldering was shocking. I've fixed that now but the sound issue still remains. I did search the web when I had the pick-ups out to try and identify that it did have US Standard Strat pick-ups and not Encore ones, and as far as I could tell it does. Wire colours and bobbins, baseplates etc all match what they should be. Having just bought a P90 equipped Les Paul the tone issue with the Strat sticks out even more as I'm liking the sounds I can get with the Lester.
So my question is what to do about it? I like the Strat and want to keep playing it but I'd like a thicker sound from it. Should I change the pick-ups or the controls? If the pick-ups, should I go for standard single coils or single coil sized P90s or humbuckers like the SD little 59. Whatever I do I'd prefer to keep it looking like a Strat so no full size humbucker recommendations please.

Alegree

I'm releasing P90 toned Strat singles in a couple of weeks, when my parts arrive to make them neatly. They're the only P90 toned Strat single that actually look like a Strat pickup, so that'd fit your criteria.
Stacked singles also are fatter sounding as a general rule.
You could also just go for hotter pickups if you're also after higher output - more winds / smaller wire = less treble.
Then yes, there's Strat sized humbuckers, but they don't look like single coils.

fretmeister

Dimarzio Chopper in the bridge and Cruisers in neck and middle work very nicely. I've used that for a while. Plenty of output without going silly (like the SD Hotrails)

But, just for a change I'm going to swap to Dimarzio Injectors and see if I get a bit more twang back.

Blacksheep

Some may disagree . . . but I'd say that irrespective of what you put in the bridge position, a strat will not sound as "thick" as a Les Paul. At best you'll get a poor imitation.

Is your bridge pickup wired to a tone control (an extremely simple and vital mod)? If so, dialling down the tone and using a good fuzz pedal will give you thick. But not Les Paul thick.

My advice is learn to love a Strat for what it is. Or accept that tone-wise it's not the guitar for you and move on. You'll save yourself a lot of time and money in the long run.

slacker

Imho a frailin with a baseplate is the thickest bridge pickup and by that I mean slightly annoying as opposed to really annoying.

Funkfingers

The stock Fender American Standard pickups were always disappointing. There are numerous brands of drop-in replacement pickups to choose between. I shall not inflict my personal preferences upon you.

The Seymour Duncan custom order Strat-Bro90 is supposed to provide the sounds that you desire. I have never been entirely convinced that it lives up to its promise. Certainly, not enough to pay full retail price plus import duties.

I concur with the view that a Stratocaster can never sound entirely like a Gibson Les Paul. (There is a long list of reasons for this.) Easier to let each design do what it does best.

As a rule, neck and middle single coils of c.6KOhms and a bridge single coil of c.10-12KOhms should make for a versatile Stratocaster. 010-046 or 010-048 gauge strings and a medium high action make you play more forcibly, thereby generating more signal. Prodigious Gilmour-esque sustain is a matter of choosing the right distortion pedal to push your amp input that bit harder.

In this regard, I was recently very pleasantly surprised by a modified Fender MIM Classic Player Fifties Stratocaster through a Rocktron Black Cat Moan pedal into an overdriven Blackstar HT-5.

Voxman

It could just be that you're a Les Paul and not a Strat guy - LP's are fatter and louder sounding than Strats.  If I plug my LP Custom or SG Standard into an amp, then plug in my Strat I'll always have to up the amp volume if I want to 'match' the LP/SG volumes.  This is particularly true of my 1969 Strat the p/ups of which are noted for having warmer tone but less 'power'. 

If you have any doubts as to whether your Strat p/ups are legit best thing to do is to visit a good guitar shop (preferably a Fender main dealer) and ask their tech to double check them for you.  You could also try & compare your USA Standard with other similar USA Standards - not the new pro series, nor ones with Delta tone that have a hotter bridge p/up, or other mods - you want just a straight 'vanilla' bog standard USA Strat to compare.  If yours sounds the same then you know there's nothing wrong.  

If you like the guitar but want more volume & a fatter tone, then you're looking at changing p/ups.  You might also want to consider the pro's & con's of noiseless options too.  You'll get mixed views here, but I have no problem with the current Fender noiseless offerings, Seymour Duncan versions, or the Bill Lawrence Somarium Cobalt noiseless p/ups that are in some Deluxe Strats (eg my 2004 50th Anniversary) that all sound great to my ears. Some folk prefer 'noisy' brighter Strat p/ups, but if you're not after the 'perfect' Strat tone such p/ups may not suit you anyway.  For fatter tones you could also have these wired up to an S1 switching system that will give you an additional 5 tonal options, some of which will be 'fatter' sounding.

mburekenge

I love SD Antiquity Texas Hots.  They have have a really nice warmth but don't lose the articulation. Bassplate under the treble pickup.

richardhomer

I agree with @Voxman - you have to deal with a Strat as Strat - they sound very different from a Les Paul (even one with P90s). There are a few things you can do, without going to the expense of swapping pick-ups.

Firstly - check pick-up height. If they are too far away from the strings, you lose output and warmth. Equally, if they're too close, they cause 'wolf-tones' and tuning issues. There's a definite 'sweet spot' where they work best. The Fender website gives guidance on this.

Secondly, set the amp up for the guitar. Typically I dial in more gain, higher mids and higher bass settings when playing a Fender guitar.

Finally, a drive pedal that is thicker in the mids (typically Tube Screamer derived designs) work well with Strats. SRV used one to fatten his Strat tones.

As a general rule, fattening up thinner tones is always easier than trying to brighten/thin down a dark/warm sounding guitar.

paulnb57

Creamery Single coil size P90's are nice
But my favoutie Strat has Bare Knuckles, Mothers Milks at Neck and Middle, with a Sinner at the Bridge...second tone wired to the bridge.........sublime!...

fftc

Blacksheep said:

My advice is learn to love a Strat for what it is. Or accept that tone-wise it's not the guitar for you and move on. You'll save yourself a lot of time and money in the long run.

Funkfingers said:

The stock Fender American Standard pickups were always disappointing.

These two posts perfectly encapsulate my dilemma!
I'd probably prefer to leave it standard and learn to love it for what it is, but I'm just wondering if I can learn to love it with pick-ups that were not disappointing. But with the price of replacement pick-ups I could spend a fortune chasing something that is essentially not achievable.

I set the pick-ups at the distance recommended by Fender, but I have since raised the treble side a touch to balance outputs. I'll check them again, but from what I recall they were set a fair bit higher when I got the guitar and the tone was disappointing then.

Regarding output. I'm not necessarily looking for higher output pick-ups, but is there a direct correlation between output and thickness? I could be wrong but when I think of hot Strat single coils I hear that kind of screechy lead sound some Strat players have.

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I'll have a look and a play and see where we end up.

ICBM

You can get overwound single coils which sound thicker and fatter than the stock Strat bridge - even the newer Fender ones are more so than a traditional Strat, although not by that much.

If you want a single-coil-size humbucker, avoid the Duncan L'il '59 - it not only sounds nothing like a real '59, it just flat-out sounds bad (in my opinion). There are Strat-size humbuckers - including Duncans - that sound good, but this isn't one of them. None of them sound like a Les Paul though - in fact nor even does putting a full-size humbucker in there.

An alternative to changing the pickups is to fit series switching so the bridge and middle pickups operate together as a sort-of humbucker. (And the neck and middle as well, if you want.) It still doesn't sound like a Les Paul, but it does sound thicker and fatter than a Strat. Fender do this with the S-1 switch on some of the higher models in the US range, and it's a very neat solution if you want to keep the stock appearance.

ESBlonde

Also your playing style and the type of music you play has a bearing. Even when the tone is overdriven the inherent 'body' of sound from a LP is quite noticable up the dusty end where a strat thins out in comparison. But if you play say below the 7th Fret that difference is not as pronounced. the straight bridge PU sound is thin by design to cope with the woolly loudspeakers of the early 50s. The OOP bridge/middle with the tone knocked well down on the guitar has that thicker sound on a strat and can sound nice with drive too. It's not everyones cup of tea (some detest it) but the likes of Richard Thompson and Eric Clapton have built great reputations with it.
Before I bought my Strat someone had fitted an early DiMarzio PU in the bridge position, I'm not complaining at the slight extra gain.

exocet

It's taken me years to arrive at a position where I'm fairly happy with the sound I get from my Strat.

I honestly think that a lot of it is getting used to how a Strat sounds especially if your ears are "tuned" to humbuckers.

Things that have worked for me:

1) Soldering a 820 pF capacitor across the output of the bridge pickup. This moves the resonant frequency down from 5 KHz to something like 3 KHz. I've played around with this a lot and I've actually made it a little more sophisticated via a 5 way super switch. Now my bridge pickup always has at least 820 pF cap in parallel (even when using bridge / middle combination) - when switched to bridge only, I've added another cap in parallel to give something like 1n5 total. If you want to try this approach, you'll need to experiment with a few different capacitor values because the results will vary according to your pickups / pot values / cable capacitance.

2) Even with the above in place, I still have the tone knob wired to bridge pickup. I use this depending on how things are sounding in any given situation / room acoustics / what other band members are doing. For a "fat lead" sound on bridge pickup, I quite often end up with tone pot on 5.

3) Roll volume pot down a little - this "flattens" the resonant peak a little - the capacitor trick above shifts the resonant peak lower in the frequency band, lowering the volume lowers the height of the peak

4) Experiment with different drives - Full Tone Full Drive works well for me with a Strat.

5) Compression - Sometimes I use this in front of another drive (I did this a lot before I got the Full Drive). Use a compressor that has the mix control (Wampler Ego for example). This makes a huge difference to the drive tone, fattens it up a treat.

6) Play your amp "flat out".....most of us can't do this but I honestly think that "back in the day", this was a major factor in getting a singing lead tone from a Strat bridge pickup...especially with a Tube Screamer in front. My take is that Strats naturally produce a lot of high frequencies, at low levels, most amps can reproduce these high frequencies to the extent that we hear the "Ice pick" treble. As the amp "saturates" especially when the power section is reaching its limits, the amp can't produce the same high frequencies, it runs out of headroom so the high frequencies get compressed. That's my take on it anyway, the end result is a fatter tone.

7) Forget the bridge pickup altogether and work on getting a singing neck pickup tone. Tube Screamer works a treat here. A mate of mine does this, never touches the bridge pickup and I have to say that I'm still tempted to adopt the same approach!

As for pickup changes....I've been down that path and have tried many different styles. 50's, 60's and 70's. They all sound a little different to each other but unless you are going to pop a Humbucker in, none of them produce a "nigh and day" difference when looking to get a singing  lead tone from the bridge. I actually found that 50's style gave me the best drive tone but in my view, save yourself some money and don't mess with pickups too much.

As I say, I think that a lot of it is acclimatising / getting used to the fundamental differences between Single Coil Strat and a Humbucker.

ICBM

I would second the above, and add one massively overlooked solution… use the middle pickup instead .

I honestly have no idea why so few people seem to like it, to me it's the best sounding pickup on the guitar and the one that's most naturally 'right' if you're used to humbuckers.

It's actually noticeable how many well-known Strat players do use it, if you watch live footage.

exocet

ICBM said:

I would second the above, and add one massively overlooked solution… use the middle pickup instead .

I honestly have no idea why so few people seem to like it, to me it's the best sounding pickup on the guitar and the one that's most naturally 'right' if you're used to humbuckers.

It's actually noticeable how many well-known Strat players do use it, if you watch live footage.

I use it...I can also recall reading many articles where its purpose is called into question. It sounds great to me

crunchman

As mentioned above a bridge pickup tone can help.  You can also put a baseplate on the bridge pickup which will fatten it up a bit.

What's the tone of the guitar like unplugged.  If it's thin and weedy unplugged that will be part of the problem.  Strats can vary a lot.  I've got two and one of them sounds a lot darker than the other.  You can hear it unplugged or plugged in.  You might just have a very bright sounding one.

Older US Standards didn't have a pressed steel trem block.  I think the newer ones do but I'm not sure when they switched.  If yours is one of the older ones that won't help the sound.  Personally I don't much care for the 2 point bridge on the US Standard.  The vintage 6 screw one does sound fuller but that's a much more major thing to change.

Funkfingers

Callaham makes an upgrade sustain block and bridge saddles with the necessary offset intonation adjustment screw. These are direct fit replacements. The vibrato bridge has to be fully disassembled. These parts would improve the mechanical sustain of the instrument. They can not cure the stock plastic bobbin pickups.

richardhomer

ICBM said:

I would second the above, and add one massively overlooked solution… use the middle pickup instead .

I honestly have no idea why so few people seem to like it, to me it's the best sounding pickup on the guitar and the one that's most naturally 'right' if you're used to humbuckers.

It's actually noticeable how many well-known Strat players do use it, if you watch live footage.

When I gigged a vintage Strat, I pretty much lived on the middle pick-up - through a cranked Music Man combo it was like 335-like.

On the Eric Clapton 70th birthday DVD, he uses it for pretty much the whole show.

Beyond me why people shun it - they sound much more muscular than the bridge pick-up but less bloated than the neck pick-up. Literally the perfect middle ground.

normula1

ICBM said:

I would second the above, and add one massively overlooked solution… use the middle pickup instead .

I honestly have no idea why so few people seem to like it, to me it's the best sounding pickup on the guitar and the one that's most naturally 'right' if you're used to humbuckers.

It's actually noticeable how many well-known Strat players do use it, if you watch live footage.

I try to use the middle every so often but just can't get to love it. The only time it sounds great to me is George Harrison using it with slide.

fftc

Lot's more to go on so thanks folks.

The trem is currently blocked with some nice hunks of ash. Not sure what the trem block is made of (it's light grey) but it shouldn't matter so much as it's blocked.
The bridge pick-up is affected by the rear tone pot. At 10 it really is treble trouble! I'm tending to use the neck pup on both the Strat and the Lester.
I'll have a wee play up the dusty end unplugged and see if I can hear a difference between the two. Certainly strumming chords unplugged both sound equally nice to me.
I have recently got a Tube Screamer mini so more of a play with that might produce some results. At the moment though a combination of domestic circumstances and playing ability have me using phones and an Amplug most of the time. New THR10C on its way so will have to get acquainted with that and what sounds I can find with the 2 guitars. Cranking a valve amp to the max is not going to happen at home so if that's the only way to get a tone I like then I'll just have to accept it won't happen! Hopefully not though.
Music wise it's blues and classic rock stuff just now. While I enjoy listening to other genres I'm not attempting to play them on guitar for now.