Amazing marketing from the wine world has reached beer land

ThePrettyDamned

I found a stout glass in John Lewis today, and it caught my eye as it had a card inside. 

It read, among other stuff, "specific diameter of the rim allows the correct flow of beer into the mouth"

And, "the curve of the bowl accentuates the flavours of dark beers". 

The same happened in the wine world - it's a myth that glass shape alters the taste or smell of wines, but the marketing worked and people would now not only have a wine glass and a champagne flute, but glasses for various types of wine in hope of it magically extracting flavours and smells unobtainable from another glass shape. 

The hip world of premium, batch brew beers has been hit, too! 

Bit of a weird looking glass, too. 

Flink_Poyd

I drink cider out of the bottle, it wastes too much time finding a glass

Sporky

ThePrettyDamned said:

it's a myth that glass shape alters the taste or smell of wines

No it isn't.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/wine-snobs-are-right-glass-shape-does-affect-flavor/

Also thin glass with as little rim as possible is nicer to drink out of, which is why I have my Robinsons in a Riedel. Machine-blown, I'm not made of money.

ThePrettyDamned

Sporky said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

it's a myth that glass shape alters the taste or smell of wines

No it isn't.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/wine-snobs-are-right-glass-shape-does-affect-flavor/

Also thin glass with as little rim as possible is nicer to drink out of, which is why I have my Robinsons in a Riedel. Machine-blown, I'm not made of money.

If you read the full study, it says the glass influences the various chemicals leaving the glass. Which, yes, affects flavour. 

But has *nothing* to do with the traditional shapes that were made for certain wines, which were designed for marketing purposes so they could sell more glasses of varying shapes. 

It also covers temperature control to some extent, although without any taste studies of either - so it's still very much in the hypothetical stage. 

Sadly, the press (such as your link, which is scientific press but still the press) tend only to read the abstract  

The full journal is available from the royal society of chemistry. 

I don't know about thin rims vs thick rims. A cursory Google shows nothing scientific, but a lot of experts saying they prefer it, which is evidence enough that it's just that - a physical preference. It won't affect the taste because the glass itself does nothing to the wine. 

Edit: apparently it was riedel that invented the various types in the early 70s to drive up sales of glasses, and it worked. They cited a tongue map, and said the shape of the glass assisted with aromas (no evidence as to whether it would,although vessel shape would change aroma). The tongue map is complete nonsense. 

WezV

The correct glass is very important for beer.  But there are a lot of standard styles that work well for most beers


Ignoring some of the more cork sniffery elements for a moment let's just talk about the gas content of beer - it makes it a very different beast to most wine styles


Glass shape has a dramatic and provable affect on head retention.  Even if we ignore the nucleation points in lager glasses for now.

  Hop oils are more prevelant in the head. if you doubt this, try  the head of your beer with a tea spoon before drinking the beer.  There is a lot of flavour and  aroma in a good head

The affect on carbonation also has a big impact on mouth feel


Also worth noting that most branded glasswear, especially for lagers, is designed and tested to work well with that liquid.   When out and about, demand branded glasswear.  Not the frozen milkshake glassese or kilner jars some places like to use.

WezV

https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/101/glassware/

WezV

The tongue map we were taught at schools can be ignored.  But don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

there are still regions of the tongue that are more sensitive to certain tastes than others, but it's not exclusive.  You can detect all flavours on any area of the tongue

Sporky

ThePrettyDamned said:

Sadly, the press (such as your link, which is scientific press but still the press) tend only to read the abstract  

I think an ad-hominem against Scientific American is unlikely to win many arguments.

Instead I will turn it around; you've said that glasses have no influence the flavour or aroma of wine; citation needed.

ThePrettyDamned

Sporky said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

Sadly, the press (such as your link, which is scientific press but still the press) tend only to read the abstract  

I think an ad-hominem against Scientific American is unlikely to win many arguments.

Instead I will turn it around; you've said that glasses have no influence the flavour or aroma of wine; citation needed.

You are, of course, correct and I'm sorry for the ad-hominem (I don't usually pull that crap) - but they have taken the abstract and extrapolated to create an attention grabbing headline. 

http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2015/an/c4an02390k

They were looking at ethanol content in a given glass, only testing three really quite different shapes of glass. The conclusion is that wine glass shape *does* affect sensory perception as it influences the rate ethanol comes from it. 

In other words, it provides no evidence that the different shapes of wine glass *designed* for certain wines make the "correct" differences in order to get the best from it. Just that the ethanol concentration around the glass varies depending on the shape. 

I've found no (scientific) evidence of the differences in taste between glasses designed for particular wines. I'm happy to be proven wrong! I actually love this stuff, the purpose of the post was to give a giggle at flowery marketing stuff rather than an attack on drink buffs.  Having attended a wine tasting, I know it is not "snobbery". 

The main "evidence" I've found for different wine glass types is based on tongue maps - which is a myth, long debunked. 

Ultimately, all that matters is the drinker enjoy it - despite this post, I have wine glasses which I broadly use for white, red and fizzies. 

This article has a few sources cited suggesting, at most, subtle variations in flavour between shapes differentiating from the iso standard glass. http://www.winetasting-demystified.com/wine-tasting-glass.html

Although, "subtle" is more than enough for some folks. And that's just fine  

WezV

Some flavours will be enhanced by the ethanol, others will not.  Some styles of wine and beer suit a bit of ethanol burn, others don't.  


The other important factor factor we are missing here, for both wine and beer, is temperature.  The glass has a massive impact there, and again the required temp is dictated by style

Sporky

ThePrettyDamned said:

They were looking at ethanol content in a given glass, only testing three really quite different shapes of glass. The conclusion is that wine glass shape *does* affect sensory perception as it influences the rate ethanol comes from it. 

In other words, it provides no evidence that the different shapes of wine glass *designed* for certain wines make the "correct" differences in order to get the best from it. Just that the ethanol concentration around the glass varies depending on the shape.

Some flavours are more soluble in ethanol than in water though, so as they've shown that different glasses affect ethanol concentration, and as the flavours in wine vary, some ethanol soluble, some water soluble (or more so/less so) then it follows reasonably logically that different glasses affect the presentation of different flavours...

As for thinner glasses, I find them nicer to drink from. I have no idea if they affect the flavour; I suspect they don't (significantly, at least).

ThePrettyDamned

WezV said:

Some flavours will be enhanced by the ethanol, others will not.  Some styles of wine and beer suit a bit of ethanol burn, others don't.  


The other important factor factor we are missing here, for both wine and beer, is temperature.  The glass has a massive impact there, and again the required temp is dictated by style

Actually, that was something on the beer glass that made 100% sense. 

It was for Stout, which I usually drink lightly chilled. In a normal beer glass, lightly chilled turns to quite warm fairly quickly. As I'm not a fast drinker, I tend not to drink stout because it gets pretty hard to drink when it's warm.

So this one had a thick stem, so your hand would not heat it up so fast.

https://www.johnlewis.com/john-lewis-stout-beer-glass/p3059289

ThePrettyDamned

Sporky said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

They were looking at ethanol content in a given glass, only testing three really quite different shapes of glass. The conclusion is that wine glass shape *does* affect sensory perception as it influences the rate ethanol comes from it. 

In other words, it provides no evidence that the different shapes of wine glass *designed* for certain wines make the "correct" differences in order to get the best from it. Just that the ethanol concentration around the glass varies depending on the shape.

Some flavours are more soluble in ethanol than in water though, so as they've shown that different glasses affect ethanol concentration, and as the flavours in wine vary, some ethanol soluble, some water soluble (or more so/less so) then it follows reasonably logically that different glasses affect the presentation of different flavours...

As for thinner glasses, I find them nicer to drink from. I have no idea if they affect the flavour; I suspect they don't (significantly, at least).

That's my point - how much does a particular white wine glass differ from a particular red wine glass, and does it help the flavour? Can that even be predicted, given that (for example) one Chilean Sav Blanc tastes much sweeter and more easy-to-drink than another that's more acidic and more floral? Would one of those be better served in a different glass shape to the other?

I agree re thinner glasses. We have some recycled glass glasses for wine, and the girlfriend loves them because eco yayyyy. But they're akin to drinking from a pewter mug! When we are out to dinner and we get nice thin glasses, I definitely prefer it. Although I can't say why - the fact it feels nicer is enough to me. 

WezV

best to remember the first bit I said.  

" there are a lot of standard styles that work well"


You dont need a different glass for each drink, but it's nice to have a few styles you can try if your doing some tasting.

i have loads of beer glasses, but tend to stick to a normal straight sided ale glass for uk beer, and a snifter for anything else.

annoyingly I broke my last thin crystal snifter a few weeks ago, the thicker glass one I have is not the same.

ThePrettyDamned

I formally retract my statement re: glasses being a myth. 

However, the marketing is still funny.  

ToneControl

Sporky said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

it's a myth that glass shape alters the taste or smell of wines

No it isn't.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/wine-snobs-are-right-glass-shape-does-affect-flavor/

Also thin glass with as little rim as possible is nicer to drink out of, which is why I have my Robinsons in a Riedel. Machine-blown, I'm not made of money.

Robinson's beer?

ToneControl

are you wine drinkers using a bottle-fitted aerator?

ICBM

I like different shaped glasses. Whether or not they affect the taste or just the drinking 'experience', it's all about enjoying something. Having an appropriate glass is part of that if you want it to be. 

I agree a lot of the marketing guff is likely to be just that, though… it's the nature of marketing guff .

Sporky

ToneControl said:

Sporky said:

Also thin glass with as little rim as possible is nicer to drink out of, which is why I have my Robinsons in a Riedel. Machine-blown, I'm not made of money.

Robinson's beer?

Robinsons Summer Fruits.

Double concentrate. I'm hardcore.

WezV

I have some Robinsons Trooper Red & Black to have tonight.

£1.09 in B&M bargains.  Couldnt resist at that price.  The lad on checkout told me it was shit.  Apparently this opinion was based on a free sample of trooper at Download.

i did point out it was different to the normal Trooper.  I held back from giving him a lecture on the difficulties of achieving a perfect poor on free beer at a music festival.

ThePrettyDamned

WezV said:

I have some Robinsons Trooper Red & Black to have tonight.

£1.09 in B&M bargains.  Couldnt resist at that price.  The lad on checkout told me it was shit.  Apparently this opinion was based on a free sample of trooper at Download.

i did point out it was different to the normal Trooper.  I held back from giving him a lecture on the difficulties of achieving a perfect poor on free beer at a music festival.

I had trooper at download a few years back when maiden played, there were folks giving out bottles for free. Decent beer, as good as I've had at a festival that's not a beer festival. 

Sporky said:

ToneControl said:

Sporky said:

Also thin glass with as little rim as possible is nicer to drink out of, which is why I have my Robinsons in a Riedel. Machine-blown, I'm not made of money.

Robinson's beer?

Robinsons Summer Fruits.

Double concentrate. I'm hardcore.

Have you tried that super concentrated stuff where. You squeeze a wee bit into a glass? So you can carry it in your, er, purse...? 

I never understood the term, "tastes chemically" until I tried that. Bleurgh