Pedal Experts.... Is there a legitimate reason an overdrive should be over £300.

Winny_Pooh

Frederic effects manage to build very sexy looking quality pedals for very fair prices. £300 is £100 too much IMO for a quality build, noting that this is just my view as a consumer. 

carlos

english_bob said:

Heh. There's a legitimate business reason why- people will pay. 

^^^^

carlos

RiftAmps said:

It's quite easy to do the maths, let's looks at the Strymon Sunset @ Andertons- https://www.andertons.co.uk/p/SUNSET/overdrive-pedals/strymon-sunset-dual-overdrive-pedal

1 x OD Pedal - £299

minus VAT (299/1.2) = £249.16

minus 30% dealer margin (249.16/1.3) = £191.66

minus import duty/shipping fees/other expenses and Andertons are probably paying £150 per unit (but would have to order 25+ at a time to hit that unit rate)

£150 minus R&D costs, parts, labour, marketing, overheads, and any other associated costs I would expect that Strymon make a net profit of around £40-£50 per unit on these.


Of course, this example is based on an imported pedal sold through a dealer, smaller UK based businesses selling DtC will make a higher profit on a £299 pedal.

By that logic Joyo and other cheap pedal makers are in the charity business of paying us to play their pedals.

Danny1969

There is a fair markup on most drive pedals, they are the lowest component count pedal BUT they are the pedal that gets used the most .... therefor people will spend money on them. In general most people would go ahead and gig without their chorus pedal or flanger but kind of have to have their drive pedal as that's their sound if they are using a clean amp.

I've got a pedal that's going into proper tape reel machine picked surface mount production which basically takes a whole days labour per pedal out of the equation  ..... in all honesty it won't be as high quality as the home built versions I have made because neatness doesn't mean reliable and well built ..... a well built design on a piece of veroboard with fly wired pots and switches is almost indestructible in normal use... the factory made piece has all components on the PCB which is neat as hell but NOT better 

juansolo

carlos said:

RiftAmps said:

It's quite easy to do the maths, let's looks at the Strymon Sunset @ Andertons- https://www.andertons.co.uk/p/SUNSET/overdrive-pedals/strymon-sunset-dual-overdrive-pedal

1 x OD Pedal - £299

minus VAT (299/1.2) = £249.16

minus 30% dealer margin (249.16/1.3) = £191.66

minus import duty/shipping fees/other expenses and Andertons are probably paying £150 per unit (but would have to order 25+ at a time to hit that unit rate)

£150 minus R&D costs, parts, labour, marketing, overheads, and any other associated costs I would expect that Strymon make a net profit of around £40-£50 per unit on these.


Of course, this example is based on an imported pedal sold through a dealer, smaller UK based businesses selling DtC will make a higher profit on a £299 pedal.

By that logic Joyo and other cheap pedal makers are in the charity business of paying us to play their pedals.

Chinese made stuff has it's own logic. They make in bulk and with labour that is by our standards, slave labour. They get their parts locally, cheaply and of varying quality. You simply cannot compete with Chinese companies that are making things for literally a few pounds, and making shitloads of them to make their profit and keep their costs to an absolute minimum. Let's also not forget, just about all Chinese pedals are knock-offs of other people's work so they effectively steal other people's R&D.

Comparing any pedals made here or in the US is just insane. I have to import parts from the US, China and Germany when I can't source them locally... An bare enclosure here will cost more than the entire built pedal in China. FWIW I had to buy some MN3007 and MN3207 (analogue chorus/flanger ICs) from Germany recently because all the ones on eBay (usually from China) are fakes, Dr Tweek is no more (the only local supplier of them). It cost me £38 for 5 of them. I have to source PT2399's (digital delay ICs) from the same place because I used to get them from China and it became increasingly apparent that they were buying up the out of spec ICs and selling them as new. The noise levels on the Chinese ICs started to get silly. Indeed the only things I get done in China now are PCB fabrication and Alpha pots because they're the only things that seem to still be of good quality.

So yeah, there are a couple of parts I can source from China that are cheaper there. Everything else is seriously substandard. Interestingly it didn't used to be, I used to regularly order from Tayda for parts because they used to supply decent stuff. Over the years that's just stopped because everything became noticeably substandard. There'll come a point when the pots are and I'll have to switch to Farnell on those too at around 3 times the price.

Chinese pedals will kill the pedal market eventually. That's how their economy works. Saturate the foreign market with cheap knock-offs and destroy the competition who can't dream of competing on price. It's happened in so many field when it comes to technology.

If you think that's a good thing, watch a few videos by BigClive on youtube. Who's an electrical engineer who's sent things to dismantle to evaluate. Some of the practices employed are shocking... Quite literally. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, those CE marks and things like that on Chinese goods, generally mean fuck all. They just print them on. That's the sort of shit you're dealing with.

carlos

"Chinese pedals will kill the pedal market eventually. That's how their economy works. Saturate the foreign market with cheap knock-offs and destroy the competition who can't dream of competing on price. It's happened in so many field when it comes to technology."

That's not killing the pedal market, that's killing the pedal market for non-Asian builders who don't do it efficiently. I've had several Joyos with no issue at all. But I've also had garden shed builders who shall not be named deliver not only knock-offs of other people's circuits but poorly built ones as well.

ICBM

juansolo said:

Chinese pedals will kill the pedal market eventually. That's how their economy works. Saturate the foreign market with cheap knock-offs and destroy the competition who can't dream of competing on price. It's happened in so many field when it comes to technology.

Going back to the heyday of the British Empire…

Mass-production factories in Birmingham, Manchester and other British cities producing vast quantities of not always very well made goods destroyed the local hand-work industries in places like India and China in the 19th Century, and made us rich at their expense. 

Now it's their turn.

juansolo

That's all fair, both posts. I've long given in on making pedals to sell and now I just sell odd ones to people who are prepared to pay for them, otherwise they're purges of essentially 2nd hand stuff. It is simply not worth my time for a return that barely covers the fuel it costs me to get to where I build them.

Joyo FTW.

As for the knock-offs thing, one of the most satisfying things is designing your own effects. The problem is 99% of people want me to build them knock-offs of the latest boutique fad (one of the reasons I dislike the klone so much and stopped making them). We've learned that our original designs no one wants because there is no hype. To generate hype requires marketing which in turn requires a shit-tonne of effort that is not factored into the selling price of pedals.

So we give them back to the DIY community, which is why we still make pedals. Because there is still innovation there (as seen by that distortion above), there are still people seeing what cool stuff they can make and then sharing them with others. It's why I extoll the virtues of making your own effects often and encourage anyone with an interest to dive into it. There's so much stuff outside the mainstream that is just awesome. Indeed we've modded a trem to do exactly what the fella wanted in another thread. It's got buried under people recommending things he doesn't want (which is essentially a trem with a lot of range and a wave control so you can soften the LFO), but I digress. When/if (it's complicated...) Grind gets back on track, we've got a fair few new effects queued up to drop into there. That delay above is one, as well as the tremolo. If you're interested in things that aren't knock-offs, get into DIY, plenty of new stuff there still.

Musicman20

Magnetic Effects make amazing high quality pedals at decent prices. Stone Deaf also don't charge an absolute bomb. Buy from a Brit manufacturer whilst the £ is so poor.

Danny1969

I've had some professional dealings with China and yeah some of the goods made at rock bottom prices are built to such a sub standard they are outright dangerous. A large shipment of laptop chargers was one, they had no over-current \ short-circuit output protection, no EMC shielding, no isolation between the 240 side and the buck converter output on the PCB and some components were insulated with pieced of cardboard wedged between them.. One sample pulled from the box rattled and went bang with a shower of cardboard when my business partner plugged it in. We ended up binning them, couldn't sell them to the public although I still have a few as examples to show people. Worryingly Amazon is awash with this shit, I've reported sellers but nothing happens

More worrying is their faking of I.C's and power transistors. A buyer for an aviation company I know came unstuck when he switched Chinese suppliers of some Atmel EEPROMS .... the new batch were all fake and even didn't work at all or failed very quickly. Luckily these are only used to store the customer seat positions and not anything vital !

I can't be the only one who's changed 8 transistors in an amp only for the new ones to blow once the load is 75% of the full rated ... because the fakes can't take the current of the originals, they are lesser transistors in a faked can ... got caught twice with fake Toshibas. 

There's still a market for pedal builders here but you have to come up with something more than just another kind of OD or just another kind of delay \ chorus. I think it is fair to say most pedal builders are very conservative in their designs so no one stands out 

crunchman

Long term, I wonder how the FX market will pan out.

When the likes of Zoom came out in the 90's we all went multi-fx until everyone realised that separate pedals tend to sound better.  With the new stuff from Axe-Fx, Helix and others being so good I do wonder if the pedal market will shrink significantly.

Eventually the really high quality stuff will creep down the price range as well.

I think people will struggle to sell stuff at current boutique prices.

MrMusic

I paid £300 a couple years back for a KOT, which i feel was an amazing investment as it will only go up in value. Not that i will ever sell my beloved KOT (which exclusivity, components and handbuilt quality reflect the expensive pricetag) but if i decided to sell it i would definitely make a profit.

Like most things i feel its up to the individual how much they wish to spend on an item and i feel often the more you spend the better the quality (Not always obviously) for example i can spend £100 for an ok off the shelf suit from the high street or i can go pay x4 the price at a tailors and get a suit perfect for me.

Kinda always depends on your budget and if you are prepared to spend a little more for the extra quality.

Sporky

crunchman said:

I think people will struggle to sell stuff at current boutique prices.

I'm not so certain - just as the market for clever integrated stuff grows (not just in FX), so does the market for mojo-bullhonky artisnal man-bun craft bodges.

Modulus_Amps

It is not just parts cost and labour rate, if you only sell one pedal a week that has to cover all your costs for that week in order to have a sustainable business.
I don't know how many pedals these guys are putting out each week, but as soon as production goes up you have to increase overheads or what I think is happening is allot of guys are outsourcing assembly and so the price goes up again

mgaw

crunchman said:

Long term, I wonder how the FX market will pan out.

When the likes of Zoom came out in the 90's we all went multi-fx until everyone realised that separate pedals tend to sound better.  With the new stuff from Axe-Fx, Helix and others being so good I do wonder if the pedal market will shrink significantly.

Eventually the really high quality stuff will creep down the price range as well.

I think people will struggle to sell stuff at current boutique prices.

I am in no doubt that i will lose money on most of me purchases when i come to resell, it is the cost of the hobby and a price well worth paying for the amount of enjoyment i get out of it

ICBM

Danny1969 said:

More worrying is their faking of I.C's and power transistors.

...

I can't be the only one who's changed 8 transistors in an amp only for the new ones to blow once the load is 75% of the full rated ... because the fakes can't take the current of the originals, they are lesser transistors in a faked can ... got caught twice with fake Toshibas.

So have I. I'm now very wary about buying 'NOS' transistors online.

I've seen some pics of dismantled ones where the actual transistor inside the casing is a tiny modern one of about the same spec - apart from the current rating. So they will measure OK, but fail under load.

clarkefan

MrMusic said:

I paid £300 a couple years back for a KOT, which i feel was an amazing investment as it will only go up in value. Not that i will ever sell my beloved KOT (which exclusivity, components and handbuilt quality reflect the expensive pricetag) but if i decided to sell it i would definitely make a profit.

That may very well be true right now but at some point supply and demand will begin to even out and that profit will vapourise, sell while the going is good!

Chalky

crunchman said: 

Long term, I wonder how the FX market will pan out.

When the likes of Zoom came out in the 90's we all went multi-fx until everyone realised that separate pedals tend to sound better.  With the new stuff from Axe-Fx, Helix and others being so good I do wonder if the pedal market will shrink significantly.

Eventually the really high quality stuff will creep down the price range as well.

I think people will struggle to sell stuff at current boutique prices.

These type of threads always lead to "these prices can't be sustained, it won't be like this in the future", whatever the subject - pedals, guitars, amps, houses, art, (insert non-music hobby item here), etc.  

But there will ALWAYS be people prepared to pay more for a desirable item because there always has been. It is a human trait.  The clever part is knowing ahead of the future, which items will they be?  

The cost of components is almost irrelevant. As is the function.  What is being sold is that elusive thing, desirability.  Marketing/media hype/bullshit, call it whatever you like, but it is what creates that desirability.

And of course, timing matters. As the old lags in London caffs used to say "The smell of a bacon sarnie is worth a quid in the morning rush-hour and a penny in the evening." Giving punters what they want and when they want it is the key. They will happily pay the price.

The only complainers are those who can't afford it.

guitarfishbay

Well, there are quite a few bass pedals in that price range and above... If it says Darkglass and Ultra on it then it's still expensive but possibly worth it on account that it just works so well with no true competition for tone and features.

siraxeman

I think the diamond encrusted pedals are worth every penny of their £300 prices.plus. the rest nah......if you can't compete with the big boys get out of the pool cos I ain't buying your OTT priced tube screamers, Rats or blues drivers or similar clones.just no...leave that to those with more money than sense.