is blackstar done ?

rsvmark

Turn over was £8.2m. A small company as defined by OECD

ecc83

" I don't like that very tight response and controlled distortion, I don't think. The voicing is another matter"

As I have come to understand guitar amp 'tone' circuits IC, you cannot divorce the two. Boosting at frequency X THEN applying distortion will produce a different sound from 'distortion then boost (or cut of course) .

I am sure you and others have gone down a pre amp chain with a scope under OD conditions and seen the way the sine wave changes shape as you do? Sine then mangled then SINE again then flat topped (a bit) and di-da-di-da till it emerges from the speaker!

There is also virtually NO correlation between the shape of the wave and the 'niceness' or otherwise of the sound!

Dave.

ICBM

ecc83 said:

" I don't like that very tight response and controlled distortion, I don't think. The voicing is another matter"

As I have come to understand guitar amp 'tone' circuits IC, you cannot divorce the two. Boosting at frequency X THEN applying distortion will produce a different sound from 'distortion then boost (or cut of course) .

The tightness and control of the sound is separate from the voicing, which is a matter mostly of EQ. The position of the EQ relative to the distortion isn't it either - I like both amps with it before and after the distortion, they're just different.

The fundamental problem for me is that Blackstar have created a range of amps with both a very tight dynamic response and a very dark, middy preamp voicing. They are definitely separate issues, although they both produce an overly-smooth, muddy tone for me, which I really dislike! Blackstar are not the only company whose 'company voicing' doesn't work for me, I've never liked a single Cornford or Dr.Z amp either, for similar reasons. (Although with Dr.Z it's not muddiness which is the problem.)

The voicing is definitely in the preamp, as I said about the Core 20 - the amount of hiss coming from it on the clean channels proves that the power amp and speakers have plenty of top-end, but it must be removed earlier in the preamp.

ecc83 said:

I am sure you and others have gone down a pre amp chain with a scope under OD conditions and seen the way the sine wave changes shape as you do? Sine then mangled then SINE again then flat topped (a bit) and di-da-di-da till it emerges from the speaker!

I was very surprised the first time I scoped a valve amp, to discover that I couldn't get a square wave out of it no matter how distorted it was! I later realised that this is one of the reasons valve amps sound nicer distorted than solid-state ones.

ecc83 said:

There is also virtually NO correlation between the shape of the wave and the 'niceness' or otherwise of the sound!

An oscilloscope trace is too crude to really show the mixture of harmonics, which is what makes the distorted sound 'nice' or otherwise.

Mk1 Lug is the right measuring instrument here . Although no doubt a spectrum analyser can also be useful.

Dave_Mc

ecc83 said:

"Wow as much as that is SS? I think I was maybe overcompensating and trying to be too fair, I usually say (on ultimate guitar, when it comes up, which is about once a week) that it's about 50:50. I guess I should look at the schematic again. "

Well when you do Dave, work out how much GAIN the ICs contribute compared to the VALVE stages.

You only need a bit of gain to get the signals above noise and at a low impedance which helps keep noise low further along the circuitry.

Dave.

How about the "pure valve" delay?

ICBM

Dave_Mc said:

How about the "pure valve" delay?

It's theoretically possible, but it would be about the size of a small house probably.

I've never seen inside the Blackstar one so I have no idea how the valve is used, but I'm quite certain it's not to create the delay.

Alnico

If today is anything to go by, My amazing S1 200 head is going to be up for sale.

I was recently diagnosed with Lupus and whether they can treat it or not, my legs are falling apart underneath me and my days of carrying big amps have come to an end.
The pain I'm in today is Olympic Level and I tried just moving my amp today and felt like I'd come off a motorbike.

It's a sad day when you have to get rid of the best amp you ever had because you can't carry it anymore!

richardhomer

Alnico said:

If today is anything to go by, My amazing S1 200 head is going to be up for sale.

I was recently diagnosed with Lupus and whether they can treat it or not, my legs are falling apart underneath me and my days of carrying big amps have come to an end.
The pain I'm in today is Olympic Level and I tried just moving my amp today and felt like I'd come off a motorbike.

It's a sad day when you have to get rid of the best amp you ever had because you can't carry it anymore!

Jeez mate - you've dealt with some shit recently, haven't you?

I sincerely hope things improve for you...

EricTheWeary

richardhomer said:

Alnico said:

If today is anything to go by, My amazing S1 200 head is going to be up for sale.

I was recently diagnosed with Lupus and whether they can treat it or not, my legs are falling apart underneath me and my days of carrying big amps have come to an end.
The pain I'm in today is Olympic Level and I tried just moving my amp today and felt like I'd come off a motorbike.

It's a sad day when you have to get rid of the best amp you ever had because you can't carry it anymore!

Jeez mate - you've dealt with some shit recently, haven't you?

I sincerely hope things improve for you...

Wow and a plus one to what Richard said. 

Alnico

richardhomer said:

Alnico said:

If today is anything to go by, My amazing S1 200 head is going to be up for sale.

I was recently diagnosed with Lupus and whether they can treat it or not, my legs are falling apart underneath me and my days of carrying big amps have come to an end.
The pain I'm in today is Olympic Level and I tried just moving my amp today and felt like I'd come off a motorbike.

It's a sad day when you have to get rid of the best amp you ever had because you can't carry it anymore!

Jeez mate - you've dealt with some shit recently, haven't you?

I sincerely hope things improve for you...

Thanks Richard,
So do I.

This started about 6 weeks ago with a sore ankle, then it spread up my right leg in a matter of days, swelled up and felt just like I'd come off a motorbike. After the hospital (again!) confirmed it's not DVT I've seen various doctors who all say the same thing and whilst they can treat it, I've got to face the fact that I can't carry stuff like this anymore among other lifestyle changes.
For now, I've got a Boss Katana 50 and a big box of Tramadol.

I'm still alive, I can still play and although this has pissed me off, there are far worse things that could happen.

Thanks man, I appreciate your thoughts.

This will probably hit the classifieds tomorrow and if it doesn't sell here I'll have to try to get someone to run me over to Coda Music and trade it in on something.
 

darthed1981

EricTheWeary said:

richardhomer said:

Alnico said:

If today is anything to go by, My amazing S1 200 head is going to be up for sale.

I was recently diagnosed with Lupus and whether they can treat it or not, my legs are falling apart underneath me and my days of carrying big amps have come to an end.
The pain I'm in today is Olympic Level and I tried just moving my amp today and felt like I'd come off a motorbike.

It's a sad day when you have to get rid of the best amp you ever had because you can't carry it anymore!

Jeez mate - you've dealt with some shit recently, haven't you?

I sincerely hope things improve for you...

Wow and a plus one to what Richard said. 

Plus two, hope things improve bro

Plectrum

Blackstar's accounts don't make happy reading. They've been making big losses for a few years (I only looked as far back as 2014). One wonders how much longer they can go on doing that. I think they're going to struggle to increase sales sufficiently in a zero-growth market. In fact with the launch of new products such as CODE and Katana, Blackstar may struggle to hold what market share they have.

Marshall OTOH increased sales last year by almost £2 million to just over £27 million and made a profit of £2.9 million gross/£2.3 million net. They have no overdraft, are completely debt free and have an £8 million "cash mountain".

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

How about the "pure valve" delay?

It's theoretically possible, but it would be about the size of a small house probably.

I've never seen inside the Blackstar one so I have no idea how the valve is used, but I'm quite certain it's not to create the delay.

Yeah that's what I was thinking.

Plus I mean going back to his original point, I'm not sure the amount of gain added per stage matters- I mean if that were true diode clipping (which actually removes gain, right?) wouldn't be the big sin it's seen to be.

darthed1981 said:

EricTheWeary said:

richardhomer said:

Alnico said:

If today is anything to go by, My amazing S1 200 head is going to be up for sale.

I was recently diagnosed with Lupus and whether they can treat it or not, my legs are falling apart underneath me and my days of carrying big amps have come to an end.
The pain I'm in today is Olympic Level and I tried just moving my amp today and felt like I'd come off a motorbike.

It's a sad day when you have to get rid of the best amp you ever had because you can't carry it anymore!

Jeez mate - you've dealt with some shit recently, haven't you?

I sincerely hope things improve for you...

Wow and a plus one to what Richard said. 

Plus two, hope things improve bro

Plus three, that's awful

ICBM

Plectrum said:

Blackstar's accounts don't make happy reading. They've been making big losses for a few years (I only looked as far back as 2014). One wonders how much longer they can go on doing that. I think they're going to struggle to increase sales sufficiently in a zero-growth market. In fact with the launch of new products such as CODE and Katana, Blackstar may struggle to hold what market share they have.

That's both surprising and worrying.

Plectrum said:

Marshall OTOH increased sales last year by almost £2 million to just over £27 million and made a profit of £2.9 million gross/£2.3 million net. They have no overdraft, are completely debt free and have an £8 million "cash mountain".

Which is also surprising, but it indicates they might have turned the corner - there were some not very good rumours about their financial situation a few years ago.

darthed1981

Plectrum said:

Blackstar's accounts don't make happy reading. They've been making big losses for a few years (I only looked as far back as 2014). One wonders how much longer they can go on doing that. I think they're going to struggle to increase sales sufficiently in a zero-growth market. In fact with the launch of new products such as CODE and Katana, Blackstar may struggle to hold what market share they have.

Marshall OTOH increased sales last year by almost £2 million to just over £27 million and made a profit of £2.9 million gross/£2.3 million net. They have no overdraft, are completely debt free and have an £8 million "cash mountain".

I just ran the accounts past my boss who is our FD, he said the accounts aren't great but OK, they won't be going under any time soon at least.

I am pleased about that, the amp market is currently extremely competitive especially at the lower end, and Blackstar can take a lot of the credit for that.

ecc83

"Plus I mean going back to his original point, I'm not sure the amount of gain added per stage matters- I mean if that were true diode clipping (which actually removes gain, right?) wouldn't be the big sin it's seen to be."

I have barely ever SEEN a delay! In my time (last time) I thought the pedal was being discontinued?  Anyhoossess, I think the valve was/is there to add a bit of 'harmonic interest' and I seem to remember talk of 'tape emulation'?

And yes, a diode CLIPPER would reduce gain (of itself but you can build V good ones around op amps with zero loss. See Duggy Self) BUT! AFAIK  no Blackstar circuit uses one! The thing so often called a 'clipper' is in fact a diode feedback compressor. Of course, ANYTHING will clip if you bash it hard enough!

Shame about the accounts. Did not know. Be VERY sad to see them go, been BLOODY good to this old fart!

Dave.

ICBM

ecc83 said:

"Plus I mean going back to his original point, I'm not sure the amount of gain added per stage matters- I mean if that were true diode clipping (which actually removes gain, right?) wouldn't be the big sin it's seen to be."

And yes, a diode CLIPPER would reduce gain (of itself but you can build V good ones around op amps with zero loss. See Duggy Self) BUT! AFAIK  no Blackstar circuit uses one! The thing so often called a 'clipper' is in fact a diode feedback compressor. Of course, ANYTHING will clip if you bash it hard enough!

The confusion is because guitarists think that "gain" and "distortion" are interchangeable terms…

The hilarious thing for me is that one of Marshall's most highly-regarded amps - the Jubilee - also uses diode clipping (and it is actually clipping, as in shunt to ground), although driven by a valve gain stage.

ecc83

" - the Jubilee - also uses diode clipping " And di THAT get the approbation and vitriol meted out to Blackstar or did Marshall emblazon on every Jubilee.." N.B! This amplifier uses SOME solid state devices in its signal path!" ?

Dave.

ICBM

No . Although to be fair to them, I'm also reasonably sure it was never marketed as "ALL valve" - that really didn't help Blackstar when the HT circuit was found to be a hybrid. (As I know you agree!)

Neither was the very much more hybrid JCM900 Dual Reverb, as far as I know - it was definitely described as "valve" though.

Whether the Jubilee could legitimately be described as "all valve GAIN" (because it is, there are no solid-state gain stages), but not as "all valve" (because the clipping is solid state), is a question of splitting hairs again...

NelsonP

Plectrum said:

Blackstar's accounts don't make happy reading. They've been making big losses for a few years (I only looked as far back as 2014). One wonders how much longer they can go on doing that. I think they're going to struggle to increase sales sufficiently in a zero-growth market. In fact with the launch of new products such as CODE and Katana, Blackstar may struggle to hold what market share they have.

Marshall OTOH increased sales last year by almost £2 million to just over £27 million and made a profit of £2.9 million gross/£2.3 million net. They have no overdraft, are completely debt free and have an £8 million "cash mountain".

If this is true then Marshall should be buying someone soon.

I hope that someone is Atomic Amplification. The Amplifire is the missing link in Marshall's portfolio at the moment, and the best modeller for Marshall tones. And the CLR is one of the best FRFRs out there too.

Go on Marshall, you know it makes sense!

Dave_Mc

ecc83 said:

"Plus I mean going back to his original point, I'm not sure the amount of gain added per stage matters- I mean if that were true diode clipping (which actually removes gain, right?) wouldn't be the big sin it's seen to be."

I have barely ever SEEN a delay! In my time (last time) I thought the pedal was being discontinued?  Anyhoossess, I think the valve was/is there to add a bit of 'harmonic interest' and I seem to remember talk of 'tape emulation'?

And yes, a diode CLIPPER would reduce gain (of itself but you can build V good ones around op amps with zero loss. See Duggy Self) BUT! AFAIK  no Blackstar circuit uses one! The thing so often called a 'clipper' is in fact a diode feedback compressor. Of course, ANYTHING will clip if you bash it hard enough!

Shame about the accounts. Did not know. Be VERY sad to see them go, been BLOODY good to this old fart!

Dave.

Well, I mean your point was that Blackstar was just fine saying what it did about the amps because of some reason you just made up, but even if that is true (and I would dispute your reasoning), it's not true for things like the delay.

And yeah absolutely about the clipping. I didn't mean that blackstar necessarily used diode clipping, I meant for other amps which did and which people didn't like.

ecc83 said:

" - the Jubilee - also uses diode clipping " And di THAT get the approbation and vitriol meted out to Blackstar or did Marshall emblazon on every Jubilee.." N.B! This amplifier uses SOME solid state devices in its signal path!" ?

Dave.

In my defence, the Jubilee was released when I had just started primary school and I didn't start playing for another 12 years or so. So it's hardly fair to blame me for not complaining about that model so much. Plus I mean I do point out that other current manufacturers have hybrid amps currently which are masquerading as valve amps (Hughes and Kettner, Engl, Peavey, etc.) on Ultimate Guitar when it comes up, so I don't really see what the problem is.

And FWIW I don't like what Marshall did with the JCM900 and Jubilee either.