The Magic Money Tree in action

Fretwired

ICBM said:

chillidoggy said:

We should send them all to Scotland, plenty of room up there...........

It's more that we actually need more people here. The population is declining (I think it may have gone up slightly this year, but the long-term trend is down) which has implications for tax and public spending in the same way as it has in Germany.

I completely understand why immigration is a problem where you are - the problem is not the numbers of immigrants, it's the complete failure of the government to manage them.

The problem is the number. The area in which I live has doubled in size due to a massive influx of eastern Europeans. They've integrated well so there's no tensions or issues from that point of view, but the government wants another 65,000 houses built locally and that will be on Green belt land. Our road infrastructure can barely cope now and we don't have a hospital, enough water or power. It's all very well saying 'build it' but it just unsustainable. We are overcrowded. The air quality where I live is worse that parts of London.

chillidoggy

 

ICBM said:

chillidoggy said:

We should send them all to Scotland, plenty of room up there...........

It's more that we actually need more people here. The population is declining (I think it may have gone up slightly this year, but the long-term trend is down) which has implications for tax and public spending in the same way as it has in Germany.

I completely understand why immigration is a problem where you are - the problem is not the numbers of immigrants, it's the complete failure of the government to manage them.

I don't blame this, or any previous government for mis-managing them. I blame them for not controlling the numbers of immigrants coming into the country in the first place.

We are inundated round these parts, and in many others, too. The locals are understandably both frustrated, and angry, particularly when they see the freebies and handouts given to them, which they themselves don't get. Bottom line? There has been too many of them arriving here in such a short space of time has caused the problems we now face.

ICBM

Agreed - the problem is the failure of the government to stop too many settling in one place. If necessary, incentives need to be made available to move to less overcrowded areas, who in most cases would welcome them. But our government doesn't believe in properly managing anything, they want to let 'market forces' rule everything.

chillidoggy

ICBM said:

Agreed - the problem is the failure of the government to stop too many settling in one place. If necessary, incentives need to be made available to move to less overcrowded areas, who in most cases would welcome them. But our government doesn't believe in properly managing anything, they want to let 'market forces' rule everything.

Oh, let's take the political leanings to one side for a moment, shall we? If you want to be correct, then change 'our government' to 'successive goverments'. Shit, they're all as guilty as each other.

We needed time to assimilate those coming in, which might have helped to water-down the rumbling and grumbling issues. The country can accept migration, but not in such huge numbers at one time. That was when the problems started, and it all kicked off. I would posit the theory that had we had a slow, steady, migration then it may not have caused us to vote for Brexit.

EricTheWeary

Rocker said:

@digitascream, why do nurses need a degree? Surely empathy, kindness, patience and a willingness to do the work are the main requirements for nursing...


I'll do the nice thing here and not show this to MrsTheWeary who would hunt you down and kill you. It's a complex, demanding job with responsibility for the health and well being of the sick and vulnerable, managing other staff, dealing with relatives, social services, NHS admin,etc. It's not about rosey cheeked angels holding your hand. 

digitalscream

Rocker said:

@digitascream, why do nurses need a degree? Surely empathy, kindness, patience and a willingness to do the work are the main requirements for nursing...

Sorry, I missed that one.

Nurse duties these days are far above what you may remember from the old days - to cope with demand, they now take on tasks that used to be exclusively the domain of doctors...including diagnosis and drug administration (for which they have to know the details of drug interactions etc).

Hell, even folk as low down the ladder as senior carers have to do that sort of thing these days. They're a bit of a controversial case, though...they're supposed to be qualified to be able to do that (to the point where they only have to do one year at university to get a nursing degree), but roughly 35% of senior carers have no clue and repeatedly fail the tests, yet are still out there dishing out prescription medication. The number of drugs errors at residential care homes is absolutely terrifying as a result, most of which have the potential to be fatal or at least cause permanent damage.

ICBM

chillidoggy said:

Oh, let's take the political leanings to one side for a moment, shall we? If you want to be correct, then change 'our government' to 'successive goverments'. Shit, they're all as guilty as each other.

I specifically didn't mention politics for a reason. 'Our government' covers all of them in the last thirty or so years when immigration has become an issue.

chillidoggy said:

I would posit the theory that had we had a slow, steady, migration then it may not have caused us to vote for Brexit.

I agree, although the irony is that it's more likely to be the non-EU immigration which has really caused the problems.

chillidoggy

ICBM said:

chillidoggy said:

Oh, let's take the political leanings to one side for a moment, shall we? If you want to be correct, then change 'our government' to 'successive goverments'. Shit, they're all as guilty as each other.

I specifically didn't mention politics for a reason. 'Our government' covers all of them in the last thirty or so years when immigration has become an issue.

OK.

chillidoggy said:

I would posit the theory that had we had a slow, steady, migration then it may not have caused us to vote for Brexit.

I agree, although the irony is that it's more likely to be the non-EU immigration which has really caused the problems.

I dunno about the rest of the country, but round here it's the EU migrants that are causing the problem. We don't see any from non-EU countries, cos we're already fully-booked!

ICBM

chillidoggy said:

I dunno about the rest of the country, but round here it's the EU migrants that are causing the problem. We don't see any from non-EU countries, cos we're already fully-booked!

Interesting, I wouldn't have guessed that. In which case you're certainly right that it would have been a contributing factor to the Leave vote.

Rocker

@EricTheWeary @Digitalscream I understand your points about nurses BUT I have had a lot of contact with nurses when I stayed in hospitals over the last forty odd years. Nurses of today are very good at admin work, IT etc. They simply ignore the nursing (caring for the sick etc) part of their job brief. A few nurses that looked after me are nurses in the traditional manner, these are exempted from criticism. Sadly they are all too few in number.

chrispy108

Rocker said:

Nurses of today are very good at admin work, IT etc. They simply ignore the nursing (caring for the sick etc) part of their job brief.

No, they don't, it's just that holding your hand isn't their job anymore, because healthcare has changed (for the better), from 40 years ago when holding your head and saying "there, there" was their only job.

chillidoggy

ICBM said:

chillidoggy said:

I dunno about the rest of the country, but round here it's the EU migrants that are causing the problem. We don't see any from non-EU countries, cos we're already fully-booked!

Interesting, I wouldn't have guessed that. In which case you're certainly right that it would have been a contributing factor to the Leave vote.

Different areas, I guess there's different problems. Thanet is an unemployment blackspot, has shedloads of migrants, and a local council that's been branded as 'the most toxic' in the country. I'm sure I've vented about them many times on here before, as they really have taken incompetence to a higher level.

Their latest cock-up was following their illegal ban on live exports from the Port of Ramsgate. Any of us in the marine world knew that the move was illegal, yet it failed to stop the council doing it.  And, naturally, the council was sued by the exporters for £5 million, and lost the case. But the sting in the tail was the council neglected to claim in time on their insurance which could have paid out £1 million, easing the loss. So us taxpayers will no doubt have to foot the bill in terms of loss of services provided to the community, which is disgraceful. And don't get me started about the bin-wankers...............

57Deluxe

This:

http://i68.tinypic.com/29mrfa1.jpg

ICBM

chillidoggy said:

Thanet is an unemployment blackspot, has shedloads of migrants, and a local council that's been branded as 'the most toxic' in the country. I'm sure I've vented about them many times on here before, as they really have taken incompetence to a higher level.

Close call vs Kensington & Chelsea right now, I think. Doubtless there are many others - local councils are not exactly a shining beacon of competence. My own one was fined £140K for a major breach of the Data Protection Act - I'm unsure if the employees responsible were held to account, but the taxpayers still picked up the bill - and not far away we have Edinburgh with it's famous £300million+ Trams Fiasco...

Hoof

ICBM said:

chillidoggy said:

Thanet is an unemployment blackspot, has shedloads of migrants, and a local council that's been branded as 'the most toxic' in the country. I'm sure I've vented about them many times on here before, as they really have taken incompetence to a higher level.

Close call vs Kensington & Chelsea right now, I think. Doubtless there are many others - local councils are not exactly a shining beacon of competence. My own one was fined £140K for a major breach of the Data Protection Act - I'm unsure if the employees responsible were held to account, but the taxpayers still picked up the bill - and not far away we have Edinburgh with it's famous £300million+ Trams Fiasco...

That's bizarre. What is the wisdom behind fining a council? 

Fretwired

ICBM said:

chillidoggy said:

Thanet is an unemployment blackspot, has shedloads of migrants, and a local council that's been branded as 'the most toxic' in the country. I'm sure I've vented about them many times on here before, as they really have taken incompetence to a higher level.

Close call vs Kensington & Chelsea right now, I think. Doubtless there are many others - local councils are not exactly a shining beacon of competence. My own one was fined £140K for a major breach of the Data Protection Act - I'm unsure if the employees responsible were held to account, but the taxpayers still picked up the bill - and not far away we have Edinburgh with it's famous £300million+ Trams Fiasco...

That's chickenfeed. My local authority was fined £50 million in 1996 for deceit, lying and fraud by Slough Estates. Labour councillors should have gone to prison but escaped punishment. We are still paying for it ..... 

ICBM

Hoof said:

That's bizarre. What is the wisdom behind fining a council? 

I have no idea - it strikes me as totally counterproductive, since the only results will be to either effectively fine every taxpayer and/or to take money from public services. I think it's highly unlikely the money would be paid by the employees responsible.

I would have preferred to see their superiors - who were found to have failed to put adequate training and checks in place - sacked.

digitalscream

Hoof said:

ICBM said:

chillidoggy said:

Thanet is an unemployment blackspot, has shedloads of migrants, and a local council that's been branded as 'the most toxic' in the country. I'm sure I've vented about them many times on here before, as they really have taken incompetence to a higher level.

Close call vs Kensington & Chelsea right now, I think. Doubtless there are many others - local councils are not exactly a shining beacon of competence. My own one was fined £140K for a major breach of the Data Protection Act - I'm unsure if the employees responsible were held to account, but the taxpayers still picked up the bill - and not far away we have Edinburgh with it's famous £300million+ Trams Fiasco...

That's bizarre. What is the wisdom behind fining a council? 

Well, they can't sack most of the people involved because of the unions. There's pretty much nothing they can really do...the fine will only go back to central government, so it's effectively a case of reducing their budget.

I suppose the theory is that it hits the councillors themselves in the form of a reduction in their expense accounts, but the reality is that the taxpayer will suffer because they spend less on providing services.

ICBM

digitalscream said:

Well, they can't sack most of the people involved because of the unions.

Probably not if you go far enough up the chain of command…

Things like this would be much less likely to happen if the senior management knew their overpaid jobs were on the line if there's a serious failure at a lower level.

digitalscream said:

I suppose the theory is that it hits the councillors themselves in the form of a reduction in their expense accounts, but the reality is that the taxpayer will suffer because they spend less on providing services.

Which is exactly what happened, unfortunately.