Best sub £400 multi-effects type setup - any strong opinions?

PolarityMan

Ive been using a GT-10 for years now (although i only use the drives for a few specific patches)

NelsonP

Amplifire?

Some sold on ebay for just under £400 recently.....
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Atomic-Amplifire-Amp-Modelling-Multi-Effects-/122555235110?hash=item1c88dc7b26:g:RbIAAOSwz71ZR66r
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Atomic-Amplifire-/322571355481?hash=item4b1ac04559:g:1uoAAOSw~XpZU~sH

Grumpyrocker

Megii said:

Cheers for all the replies chaps, plenty to think about. I guess I'm still leaning in the Boss MS-3 direction, but just wish it had a bit higher spec - maybe another loop, and make that a stereo one also. And a better screen would be good, although I think I could live that all the same. Perhaps I should wait for the MS-6 or whatever, if that's on the way...

@Grumpyrocker - my current board actually has a Zoom G3 to handle delays/reverbs/modulations/filter etc. effects (also a Zoom MS70CDR) - and I tend to agree with you about the sound quality of the effects, and the range of them, and also I like that I can have any 6, including several of the same type, in any order. It's great in many ways, but it's become apparent to me that I really need/want better patch switching i.e. the ability to change between completely different patches with one footswitch press. If Zoom made their own version of the Boss MS-3, or perhaps a bit expanded from that, that might be a winner for me.

Yes the switching lets the G3 down. When it was first released it wasn't a problem. But the update that let you have six effects instead of 3 made the unit more complicated than the footswitches allowed.  I'd have to think a bit to make it work for me live, but for home use it's great.

ICBM

Here's an observation from something I was trying out today.

I have two multi-FX units here, which I was trying to decide between... my 1990s Boss GT-5 and a ME-50 which I think is about ten years old - OK, not the most up-to-date technology but it's still fully digital (COSM) whereas the GT-5 is a hybrid of analogue overdrive/distortion, digital time-based effects and COSM amp modelling (which I didn't use for this test).

And a Boss LS-2. This is important because it enables direct A/B switching on the fly, with accurately matched levels (since that changes the apparent tone).

The surprising conclusion is that although both units are quite different in technology and layout, flexibility, ease of use etc… they sound almost identical, on those effects where there are direct equivalents. I could set them both up so it was very difficult to tell them apart, and if you picked one at random and played through it you probably wouldn't be able to tell which it was.

This is a good thing, because I can now use each for its own strengths - the GT-5 for it's greater number of simultaneous effects, flexible effect order and the ability to save multiple 'pedalboards' which can then be controlled manually - and the ME-50 for its simple, knob-based interface. (I don't like its programmable mode at all.) I had assumed one would sound better than the other and I would end up selling the one that sounded least good and putting up with the limitations of the other.

So I would now actually be surprised if most of the other Boss models sound *that* different from each other either. Given that, I would also not be too surprised if that applies to quite a lot of the other makers too… in other words, you may be best choosing based on flexibility and user interface, rather than sound. I suspect that with a bit of work - which you need with any multi-FX - almost all of them can be made to sound good.

vasselmeyer

Grumpyrocker said:

Yes the switching lets the G3 down. When it was first released it wasn't a problem. But the update that let you have six effects instead of 3 made the unit more complicated than the footswitches allowed.  I'd have to think a bit to make it work for me live, but for home use it's great.

It's perfectly possible to use a G3 is a full gig-worthy multifx.  Below is a picture  of my setup which is a small rig (on a PedalTrain 1) which I use if my huge BOSS ES-8 board is too big for the venue or I have to go direct to the PA (or as a backup if my amp goes down).

The G3 handles all the FX (and amp sims if I need them). One of the best kept secrets about the G3 is that it is midi compatible, but only does MIDI over USB. I control it with the Tech21 MIDI Moose. The midi out from the Tech21 goes to a Kenton MIDI>USB converter which sends midi over a USB cable to the G3. The MIDI Moose sends bank changes  which correspond to patches on the G3. So I can have up to 5 patches per song  which is enough for anyone. As an example the five buttons on the MIDI Moose bank 1 gives me:
Twin
Twin with slapback
Twin with Chorus and slapback
Twin with TS
Twin with wah and  TS

The expression pedal goes into the G3 and I can vary one parameter per effect per patch. I was about to build an Arduino midi>USB converter but I found the Kenton cheap. It's small, neat and  I can use it with an amp  or the PA. OK, it's not a Helix or Axe FX but the amp sims are good enough to get me through a gig and there's no way any non-musician in the audience would be able to tell I'm not using real pedals or amp. 

Grumpyrocker

Oh I don't doubt I could use it live. I just haven't bothered working it out as I'm not gigging at the moment. But I wouldn't hesitate to use it in a live setting - sounds great.

Megii

Grumpyrocker said:

Megii said:

Cheers for all the replies chaps, plenty to think about. I guess I'm still leaning in the Boss MS-3 direction, but just wish it had a bit higher spec - maybe another loop, and make that a stereo one also. And a better screen would be good, although I think I could live that all the same. Perhaps I should wait for the MS-6 or whatever, if that's on the way...

@Grumpyrocker - my current board actually has a Zoom G3 to handle delays/reverbs/modulations/filter etc. effects (also a Zoom MS70CDR) - and I tend to agree with you about the sound quality of the effects, and the range of them, and also I like that I can have any 6, including several of the same type, in any order. It's great in many ways, but it's become apparent to me that I really need/want better patch switching i.e. the ability to change between completely different patches with one footswitch press. If Zoom made their own version of the Boss MS-3, or perhaps a bit expanded from that, that might be a winner for me.

Yes the switching lets the G3 down. When it was first released it wasn't a problem. But the update that let you have six effects instead of 3 made the unit more complicated than the footswitches allowed.  I'd have to think a bit to make it work for me live, but for home use it's great.

I do in fact use mine, as part of my pedal board, live - and the sound quality more than adequate. I get by, but I'm also aware that with better switching for my board as a whole, I could, and would, do more, so it's limiting me in that way.

It is annoying to me that Zoom don't make the exact product I'd like to buy - which is something not too bulky, with all the modulations/delays/reverbs etc. on the G3, plus the extras on the MS70CDR, say up to 9 effects in a chain, and with at least a couple of send-return loops that can be moved anywhere in the signal chain, and with proper banks and presets type switching.

To be fair, no other company seems to make anything like that either, though Boss's MS-3 might be the closest. The MS-3 does interest me, but I can't help comparing it's range of effects with those on the G3, which often seems to have a bigger range of each type - for example, the G3 has 4 or 5 different chorus types, and the boss just one or two. Same sort of thing with phasers, flangers etc. - the Zoom is very good for offering a wide range of effects within the different types, and it's mostly all good stuff as well. Boss seems to be more of the "you want a phaser, it's got a phaser, that ought to be enough" mind set.

When it comes to the bigger, all-in-one multi-fx boards, then I really feel they should be able to do everything I want, including drive sounds. I don't wan't to have a sizeable multi-fx, and then have to have that mounted on a pedal board, with external drive pedals added at the side, or other stuff, as that seems to negate the convenience and neatness of the whole idea. Probably something like the Helix would work great for me in this context, but that's getting into way more expenditure than I can justify.

Megii

vasselmeyer said:

Grumpyrocker said:

Yes the switching lets the G3 down. When it was first released it wasn't a problem. But the update that let you have six effects instead of 3 made the unit more complicated than the footswitches allowed.  I'd have to think a bit to make it work for me live, but for home use it's great.

It's perfectly possible to use a G3 is a full gig-worthy multifx.  Below is a picture  of my setup which is a small rig (on a PedalTrain 1) which I use if my huge BOSS ES-8 board is too big for the venue or I have to go direct to the PA (or as a backup if my amp goes down).

The G3 handles all the FX (and amp sims if I need them). One of the best kept secrets about the G3 is that it is midi compatible, but only does MIDI over USB. I control it with the Tech21 MIDI Moose. The midi out from the Tech21 goes to a Kenton MIDI>USB converter which sends midi over a USB cable to the G3. The MIDI Moose sends bank changes  which correspond to patches on the G3. So I can have up to 5 patches per song  which is enough for anyone. As an example the five buttons on the MIDI Moose bank 1 gives me:
Twin
Twin with slapback
Twin with Chorus and slapback
Twin with TS
Twin with wah and  TS

The expression pedal goes into the G3 and I can vary one parameter per effect per patch. I was about to build an Arduino midi>USB converter but I found the Kenton cheap. It's small, neat and  I can use it with an amp  or the PA. OK, it's not a Helix or Axe FX but the amp sims are good enough to get me through a gig and there's no way any non-musician in the audience would be able to tell I'm not using real pedals or amp. 

Cheers @vasselmeyer - worth thinking about.

sweepy

The Mooer Red Truck looks interesting

https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/25562-mooer-audio-releases-the-red-truck-baby-bomb-mod-factory-pro-and-tender-octaver-pro

Megii

ICBM said:

Here's an observation from something I was trying out today.

I have two multi-FX units here, which I was trying to decide between... my 1990s Boss GT-5 and a ME-50 which I think is about ten years old - OK, not the most up-to-date technology but it's still fully digital (COSM) whereas the GT-5 is a hybrid of analogue overdrive/distortion, digital time-based effects and COSM amp modelling (which I didn't use for this test).

And a Boss LS-2. This is important because it enables direct A/B switching on the fly, with accurately matched levels (since that changes the apparent tone).

The surprising conclusion is that although both units are quite different in technology and layout, flexibility, ease of use etc… they sound almost identical, on those effects where there are direct equivalents. I could set them both up so it was very difficult to tell them apart, and if you picked one at random and played through it you probably wouldn't be able to tell which it was.

This is a good thing, because I can now use each for its own strengths - the GT-5 for it's greater number of simultaneous effects, flexible effect order and the ability to save multiple 'pedalboards' which can then be controlled manually - and the ME-50 for its simple, knob-based interface. (I don't like its programmable mode at all.) I had assumed one would sound better than the other and I would end up selling the one that sounded least good and putting up with the limitations of the other.

So I would now actually be surprised if most of the other Boss models sound *that* different from each other either. Given that, I would also not be too surprised if that applies to quite a lot of the other makers too… in other words, you may be best choosing based on flexibility and user interface, rather than sound. I suspect that with a bit of work - which you need with any multi-FX - almost all of them can be made to sound good.

Useful research there, cheers for sharing those findings @ICBM

Megii

sweepy said:

The Mooer Red Truck looks interesting

https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/25562-mooer-audio-releases-the-red-truck-baby-bomb-mod-factory-pro-and-tender-octaver-pro

Yes, interesting! cheers @sweepy

vasselmeyer

@Megii Consider that you can also do this with the Zoom MS50G which has the same patches and sounds as the G3 in a stompbox sized box. It also does MIDI over USB, but you can't use an expression pedal.

Megii

vasselmeyer said:

@Megii Consider that you can also do this with the Zoom MS50G which has the same patches and sounds as the G3 in a stompbox sized box. It also does MIDI over USB, but you can't use an expression pedal.

Will do @vasselmeyer ;, but I already have the G3, and indeed use it with an expression pedal, so... But I guess your midi-equipped fx controller looper, plus midi to USB converter route would probably work out cheaper than a Boss MS-3, so it does merit some consideration. Afraid your pic of your pedal board doesn't work on my PC, don't suppose you've any way of posting that so I can see it?

Grumpyrocker

Ooh the Mooer Red Truck does look really interesting. A Fly Rig with even more features.

vasselmeyer

@Megii ; this might work:

Megii

vasselmeyer said:

@Megii ; this might work:

Works great, cheers! Appreciate you going to the trouble @vasselmeyer - it's just that sometimes it really helps to see what someone is talking about, beyond all the detailed description. Now I'm wondering if I could do something similar with both my G3 and MS70-CDR on the same board...

vasselmeyer

@Megii I think you could do that actually. Both the Zooms use MIDI over USB. I'm not sure which channel they use; it's either 1, which is what the MIDI Moose is set to, or omni, which means they respond to any midi channel. Anyway, if you wanted to use two, either linked in series or one in front of the amp and one in the loop, then all you'd need to do is make sure the patches you use match up as the MIDI Moose only sends PC changes.

So, whenever you select A0 on the G3 you would need to make sure that the corresponding A0 patch on the MS-70CDR was what you needed. You would also need to make sure that the signal gets tot he Zooms so I reckon that you could put a USB hub on the board as the Kenton only has one USB out. You would plug a USB hub into the Kenton and then the Zooms into the hub.

jamiexsilver

Also sorry to hijack this thread but if that's the way you're going I have a midi moose for sale.

Megii

jamiexsilver said:

Also sorry to hijack this thread but if that's the way you're going I have a midi moose for sale.

I love this forum! - still very much thinking about things at this stage @jamiexsilver , and may well opt for the Boss MS-3, or indeed something else, but don't blame you all for mentioning the midi moose you're selling.  And thanks very much for your further thoughts and advice @vasselmeyer  

Megii

Just ordered an MS-3 - in the end, it was close enough to my ideal solution that I had to give it a go. Cheers for all the replies to this thread though, all good food for thought, and helped me make a decision.