Les Paul Prototype Build

Rabs

Looks great man.....

WezV

started properly on the neck.  Truss rod slot was routed first whilst it was a big square block - then I cut out the side profile

I still need to plane the headstock face  smooth  then i will add wings, veneer and get the fretboard stuck on

BigMonka

You make building a guitar look so quick and easy!

WezV

BigMonka said:

You make building a guitar look so quick and easy!

There are lots of difficult things in guitar building, but at this point on this build it has all been really easy.

Its easier because I have all the templates and tools ready to go, and I have done a hell of a lot of research on each method I could use.   Last time I did a LP I had to do the contour map templates from scratch - that was most of a day gone but its paid off now I have used them twice.  I am still surprised by how quick and easy it is to get a gracefully carved top with  this method

Once the carve is done one of the most challenging aspects of a LP build is the neck join - that will be made easier here by going for a full width tenon.  Its only slightly more challenging that a standard fender neck pocket this way.

....

I ordered a load of parts for this yesterday - including a raised diamond tailpiece in nickel.

Danielsguitars

WezV said:

BigMonka said:

You make building a guitar look so quick and easy!

There are lots of difficult things in guitar building, but at this point on this build it has all been really easy.

Its easier because I have all the templates and tools ready to go, and I have done a hell of a lot of research on each method I could use.   Last time I did a LP I had to do the contour map templates from scratch - that was most of a day gone but its paid off now I have used them twice.  I am still surprised by how quick and easy it is to get a gracefully carved top with  this method

Once the carve is done one of the most challenging aspects of a LP build is the neck join - that will be made easier here by going for a full width tenon.  Its only slightly more challenging that a standard fender neck pocket this way.

....

I ordered a load of parts for this yesterday - including a raised diamond tailpiece in nickel.

Yeah you full width tenon cheat

This is looking interesting wez, I'd love to know your thoughts on both types of long tenon too, tonally too

WezV

I tend to think structurally rather than tonally when it comes to neck joins - the benefit is it often works tonally too.

All of the joins can be done well and will be strong enough ....  but the gibson design is more complex and often introduces compromises.


I will happily do something in a more complex manner if it brings other benefits.  Like laminating the neck.  benefit 1 - i can use reclaimed mahogany of the wrong dimensions.  Benefit 2 - its noticeably more stable


I see no benefit to Gibson's complex tenon design.  The full width tenon is easier to fit accurately and gives a much bigger glue surface area.  You are fitting 4 (3 large structural) facets rather than 7 (5  small structural) facets so you are less likely to compromise with gaps or need to shim one facet that's been overworked.   You have the fretboard sitting totally on the neck shaft, so are less likely to get a body end hump common to les pauls.

Danielsguitars

I was joking, it's your build that's all that matters

I'm not keen on the full width myself just personal preferences, I'm only doing one full width when i get round to putting it together, its on a dc junior but I have another planned using the standard long tenon

Great to see it your one finished though

WezV

customkits said:

I was joking

I wasn't.  I think I make valid points and I think it's worthy of discussion.

Danielsguitars

WezV said:

customkits said:

I was joking

I wasn't.  I think I make valid points and I think it's worthy of discussion.

one reason I didn't like the full width on the special I did is I don't like too much of the lip that runs alongside the fretboard so I made one with the normal tenon, don't care if its not correct it's not a replica

I played a 56 recently and while it was such a great guitar I still don't like that lip so I won't be using one anytime soon

I also don't agree with your statement regarding fitting a normal tenon
I had engineered plates made up for using a router and bushing, one for the tenon and one for the mortice, comes out perfect, since then I use a pin router with no problem either, it does depend on your available tools and what your used too etc

It's not a case of one is better imo

GSPBASSES

customkits said:

WezV said:

customkits said:

I was joking

I wasn't.  I think I make valid points and I think it's worthy of discussion.

one reason I didn't like the full width on the special I did is I don't like too much of the lip that runs alongside the fretboard so I made one with the normal tenon, don't care if its not correct it's not a replica

Sorry, not with you there, could you explain what this LIP is please.

@WezV you should know better than to have a discussion about Les Paul construction with a 59 worshipper who wears an anorak and sniff corks.







Only kidding.










Not really.

WezV

I have done the lip on Jnr and a few other styles.  I won't be doing it here.

i comment about the imperfect nature of Gibson tenons is down to the fact you oft see a a shim.  The good thing about Gibsons long tenon is you can see if it's badly fitted, the short totally hides it.

but I will repeat what I said before, they are all fine - if well fitted

Danielsguitars

GSPBASSES said:

customkits said:

WezV said:

customkits said:

I was joking

I wasn't.  I think I make valid points and I think it's worthy of discussion.

one reason I didn't like the full width on the special I did is I don't like too much of the lip that runs alongside the fretboard so I made one with the normal tenon, don't care if its not correct it's not a replica

Sorry, not with you there, could you explain what this LIP is please.

@WezV you should know better than to have a discussion about Les Paul construction with a 59 worshipper who wears an anorak and sniff corks.







Only kidding.










Not really.

I meant the 1/4 inch lip alongside the fretboard on a sc junior, it's not comfortable to me so I don't do it 

I do a small nod to it and use the normal long tenon

I know your not joking Graham, so what, I like vintage guitars but not necessarily all aspects of construction, can't argue with feel and tone on a good one though

WezV

Market dictates the sum of bugger all to me, which is nice

GSPBASSES

Sorry penny dropped. I know what you mean by a LIP. I only made one like that about month ago, pictured below.
See

WezV

 That's the one.

think I showed the Gibson 51 prototype on the first page.  That is full width, doesn't have the full length  lip, but it's still a bit more obvious that I will be after

earwighoney

WezV said:

I tend to think structurally rather than tonally when it comes to neck joins - the benefit is it often works tonally too.

All of the joins can be done well and will be strong enough ....  but the gibson design is more complex and often introduces compromises.


I will happily do something in a more complex manner if it brings other benefits.  Like laminating the neck.  benefit 1 - i can use reclaimed mahogany of the wrong dimensions.  Benefit 2 - its noticeably more stable


I see no benefit to Gibson's complex tenon design.  The full width tenon is easier to fit accurately and gives a much bigger glue surface area.  You are fitting 4 (3 large structural) facets rather than 7 (5  small structural) facets so you are less likely to compromise with gaps or need to shim one facet that's been overworked.   You have the fretboard sitting totally on the neck shaft, so are less likely to get a body end hump common to les pauls.

I have no idea what is going on this post but I would like to think I might have learnt something. 

***
I can't comment on the rigidity or stability of a multi piece/laminated neck but I really like the aesthetics of a laminated neck.  It seems to have become associated with 'metal' guitars but it's been in usage for far longer.  Not sure when it first came about my favourite guitar makers to use them did in the '30's 

earwighoney

WezV said:

started properly on the neck.  Truss rod slot was routed first whilst it was a big square block - then I cut out the side profile

I still need to plane the headstock face  smooth  then i will add wings, veneer and get the fretboard stuck on

Lovely stuff.  This thread has been a delight to follow.  Look forward to seeing the guitar finished. 

GSPBASSES

I totally agree with @WezV's about Les Paul neck joints. I started to make Les Paul standards more years ago I care to remember, to give you an idea how long ago, the Internet was only just coming into life, my computer used 5" floppy disks that only held 200 K of data and 32k of ram. The first Les Paul's I made did at the narrow tenon that Gibson used, but it was a real pain to do.. You only have to go online and Google Les Paul neck joints and see how badly made they used to be and most likely still are. Where the tenon didn't reach the end of the pocket, the end of the pocket had round corners, the neck just has the corners cut off. you can fit your fingers in between the two joints. Many of my customers asked if there was any way of making it easier to get to the upper frets, the obvious solution was to cut the corner of the body off and round it slightly. However, this exposed any gaps in the tenon. My solution was to go to a full width tenon and cut off the corner of the body where the neck joint in to the body and smooth it all round. this allowed easy access to all the upper frets.

 Visually, the only difference you can see from the front of the guitar, the binding coming of the body on the bottom bout dose not run into the side of the neck up to the sixteenth fret. Obviously from the back there was a massive difference visually. I don't believe this mod to the neck joint makes any difference in the tone.

Although I'm quite sure Les Paul purist, in particular the 59 worshippers will give me 1000 reasons why it has to have a badly fitting narrow tenon that doesn't reach the end of the joint, the gaps between the two parts of the tenon is all part of why the 59 sounds the way it does.

I also believe the reason the Les Paul guitar ended up with the narrow tenon, was simply because at the time Gibson were making acoustic guitars that had either a thin tenon or I dovetail type neck joints. One presumes this type of manufacturing just transferred over to their solid guitars. Whereas if Les Paul had taken his idea to Leo Fender would it have a bolt on neck?

 I make my Les Paul necks from three pieces of quarter sawn mahogany. The way Gibson make a Les Paul neck is from a piece of mahogany three inches square and about 32 inches long. I would think the wastage on this is at least 60 percent (this is before the neck blank is cut to width and shaped). I realise there always as to be some wastage when making a neck, but I think that is excessive. Although I would imagine the cost of these neck blocks is minimal to Gibson so 60 percent wastage means nothing to them. Whereas my way of doing it Is more cost-effective. I buy very wide  boards of mahogany that are slap cut, then cut the necks side profile from the board's. Then glue three pieces together to make the neck. This reduces the wastage to virtually nothing. I also believe this makes for a much stronger neck.

Having said that about Gibson and the way they make their guitars, that is quite valid. I still think a Gibson Les Paul is beautiful guitar will made (even if I don't agree with the way they do it), if I wasn't a guitar maker I would not hesitate to buy one. It's just a shame that so many people seem to jump on the bandwagon and moan about Gibson. Even though Gibson seem to have lost their way in recent years, one hopes, they will survive the crisis that the holding company has got them into and all the other brands, that this holding company have screwed up. I'm sure there are many members of the forum who owned Gibson Les Paul's and love them to bits.

@WezV Sorry, I'll shut up now and leave this post to the real thing about you making your prototype Les Paul, and I must say is most interesting.

 

PS I wonder if Terry Morgan makes his 59 Les Paul’s neck joints badly to make them more authentic.

Danielsguitars

  

I'll catch up when it's finished Wez

WezV

customkits said:

  

I'll catch up when it's finished Wez

Mate, it's a discussion forum.  Differences in opinion are welcome.

i don't believe there is a black/white or right/wrong way to do it. I do believe each of the methods is only as good as the person doing it

i have done the narrow tenon join on different styles of guitar and I know it's not for me