Harmonic Minor scales

Nikko

Recently discovered these (beginner ) and absolutely love the sound and feel of them, and after having a bit of a play, I've found that my playing can sound a lot more expressive than if I am trying to solo over backing tracks using pentatonics. 

Just thought I'd share  

Do you have any default /go to scales/modes that you like to utilise the most? 

octatonic

Phrygian Dominant (Mode 5 of the Harmonic Minor).
Lydian Dominant (Mode 4 of Melodic Minor).
Altered Scale (Mode 7 of Melodic Minor), also called Super Locrian.

These need to be approached properly though- they have specific uses and when used out of context they can sound bad/wrong and not in a good way.

Freebird

For the innocent among us, A harmonic minor scale differs from a natural minor scale in that the seventh note is raised one semitone both ascending and descending. Melodic minor scales raise both the sixth and seventh notes one semitone when ascending, and descends like the natural minor scale.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Harmonic_minor_scale_in_A-minor.png/400px-Harmonic_minor_scale_in_A-minor.png

Veganic

I only really think in a vaguely modal way if I am trying to come up with a riff, other than that its all chord tones and passing notes and pentatonics for me.

But to stick with your original thread, bearing in mind I am not a theorist and someone will be along to put me right..

Try throwing in the minor 7th and maj 3rd and see if it works as chromatic runs and passing tones.

Also, what are the backing tracks you are using, out of interest? I dunno if it is helpful seeing it as harmonic minor if it isn't harmonising with the backing, though if it sounds good it is right, obv. 

Finally: minor swing is a simple progression that works well with harmonic minor- no need to play it fast!)
Or anything with the i iv V7 and maybe even a iib5 (or any diatonic chord obv.)

(Perpetual beginner so possibly talking crap, bullshitting and making a load of assumptions so take what you can and ignore the rest.) 

carlos

You mean the Aeolian #7 scale?
I don't like scales with tone and a half gaps between notes unless I got my classical out and want to do some fake flamenco, in which case Phrygian dominant all day.
I really like the mel minor and its harmonisation. Lots of useful modes there including the altered and augmented scales.

carlos

Freebird said:

Melodic minor scales raise both the sixth and seventh notes one semitone when ascending, and descends like the natural minor scale.

In classical there's the asc/desc variation but in modern usage in jazz and fusion the mel minor is the same going both ways.

Dominic

I tend to favour the 6 th mode of the Martian Demented although some of my more interesting work involves careful use of the Super Gregorian Contraceptive leaving out the flat5 against a dominant .
Harmonic minor -which I like does not have a great use in either rock,pop or even Jazz really . Keep that one for Baroque Preludes and Fugues.
 As my teacher,who is a phenomenal jazz player says......don't get caught up in all that pretentious crap made up by guitarists to try and sound like credible musicians !!!!

carlos

Dominic said:

Harmonic minor -which I like does not have a great use in either rock,pop or even Jazz really . Keep that one for Baroque Preludes and Fugues.

Well, there's a whole branch of rock/metal that thrives on this scale for soloing.

Dominic

Actually - fair comment about the metal thing.............it's not a genre that I am very familiar with

stratman3142

Dominic said:

...
Harmonic minor -which I like does not have a great use in either rock,pop or even Jazz really . Keep that one for Baroque Preludes and Fugues...

It's used in Smooth by Santana. And if you're into Yngwie Malmsteen.

Also, the Phrygian dominant (a mode of the harmonic minor) is commonly used in Spanish gypsy music.

bbill335

carlos said:

Dominic said:

Harmonic minor -which I like does not have a great use in either rock,pop or even Jazz really . Keep that one for Baroque Preludes and Fugues.

Well, there's a whole branch of rock/metal that thrives on this scale for soloing.

Robbie Krieger was a fan I think. I'm not good with theory but isn't harmonic minor the stuff that sounds sitar-y? There's another non-classical or jazz use for it. 

carlos

Malmsteen, Blackmore, Uli Jon Roth, Schenker, basically every shredder that sounds vaguely classical.

missmisstreater

And don't forget all that Gypsy music....

Dominic

carlos said:

Malmsteen, Blackmore, Uli Jon Roth, Schenker, basically every shredder that sounds vaguely classical.

Sure; like I said ,Baroque Preludes and Fugues

viz

carlos said:

Freebird said:

Melodic minor scales raise both the sixth and seventh notes one semitone when ascending, and descends like the natural minor scale.

In classical there's the asc/desc variation but in modern usage in jazz and fusion the mel minor is the same going both ways.

I'd just like to mention something here which is a bit of a nuance on this ascending/descending thing. I'm sure you both know this but I think it's a crucial point. 

The point is that in classical music, the natural minor is the default, and was used over the tonic chord almost exclusively. Over the dominant chord however, the 6th and 7th may be raised, to make the dominant better. (So if you were to play that as a scale over the dominant, it would really be the 5th mode of the melodic minor - the Hindu scale, or Mixolydian b6 scale. Or major-minor scale as I like to call it). Anyway, the way this effect is DEMONSTRATED when playing minor scales, is to put it in the context of a i-V-i progression. In other words, on the way up, from the 1st note to the 4th, the i chord is assumed; from the 5th note up to the 7th, the V chord is assumed, and then the assumption is it resolves to the i chord for the way down.

It's not so much the fact that in musical melody the raised 6th and 7th are always used for the way up, though that does often happen too because it makes for a better tunes, but it's that the raised 6th and 7th are used over the dominant. The background chord is the key determinant. 

In jazz however, the melodic minor scale gets used over the tonic chord, so whichever direction the tune is going, the 6th and 7th can remain raised. Jazz songs are genuinely 'written in melodic minor'. 

This is why jazzers always describe the melodic minor as being "like the major scale but with a flattened 3rd", whereas classical musicians say it's "like the natural minor but with a raised 6th and 7th so that tunes work over the dominant". 

By the way though, in plenty of jazz the classical model is also used, ie the song is in natural minor by default but the 6th and 7th get raised on the dominant. It's just that the melodic minor CAN be used in tonic position whereas in classical it was just not thought of as being appropriate for the tonic. 

Obviously the same applies to the harmonic minor, in that 90% of the times you hear it, you are actually hearing it in 5th mode - phrygian dominant - ie, over the dominant chord. Just listen to Yngwie, he NEVER plays it over the tonic, he only ever plays it over the dominant. But in practising the harmonic minor scale, you don't do the ascending/descending thing, because "harmonic" means "related to chords", and you're not trying to demonstrate the melodic possibilities, you're just demonstrating the major 3rd in the V chord.

As an aside, I actually think classical musicians should practise harmonic minor in its 5th mode, and melodic minor should be practised in the following way: ascending it should start and end on the 5th degree - ie if in A minor, we should ascend from E to E (E F# G# A B C D E), then hop up to top A for the descending part in A natural minor (A G F E D C B A). That would be a far better demonstration of the V-i progression which is what the scale is designed to model, and clear up a lot of confusion about why melodic and harmonic minors were invented in the first place. 

I am aware this is one of my pet dogmatisms, and am sorry for bringing it up yet again

bingefeller

I like harmonic minor over the 3rd of a major chord e.g. C# harmonic minor over A major 7.  Kurt Rosenwinkel uses this quite a bit in his playing, although not sure if you will hear it in his more recent abstract playing. 

viz

bingefeller said:

I like harmonic minor over the 3rd of a major chord e.g. C# harmonic minor over A major 7.  Kurt Rosenwinkel uses this quite a bit in his playing, although not sure if you will hear it in his more recent abstract playing. 

Nice. Lydian but with an augmented 2nd.