Advice on matching pedal volumes

austint01

I've been gigging for a few years now and I still can't manage to get my volumes right between various levels of gain. I'm aware of gain staging and have watched the informative TPS show on the subject. Amp headroom, EQ curves etc.

I've got a blackstar artisan 15 (with a G12H). Because it's a seriously loud amp I have to keep the volume down and get my "almost clean" from a Looking Glass. Rock crunch is a Marvel Drive and a Bad Monkey for solo boost. 

It should be simple but I find the clean is either too loud or quiet depending on the song and how much the band are giving it. I know my guitar (McCarty) has a volume control but it sounds spankiest on 10. Same with the crunch tones. Sometimes they get a bit buried and sometimes I can't get the gain level because I gave to back off to match the volume.

I feel like I'm always fighting it. What am I doing wrong?

MikkiMcMurderer

I suggest a compressor pedal to reduce the dynamic differences between clean loud chords vs quieter  single notes. 1st in line and leave always on with a lowish threshold 

austint01

I've been through this before. I had the empress and found it made the amp (fender hrd at the time) clip in a bit of an unnatural way. Maybe the blackstar will cope better.

I prefer them after ODs though, before kicks the gain of the pedal too much and I feel I don't have any dynamics at all.

Might have to revisit compressors again. I think it will be my 4th time lol.

steamabacus

A volume pedal (after all your drives/boosts/etc) might be the way to go.

I always like to set my amp a little louder than needed and then knock it back a bit with a volume pedal. It allows me to ride the pedal up or down a bit depending on band dynamics.

Beexter

If you're going down the compressor route, try one with a blend / mix control. I struggled with them until I did. 

austint01

steamabacus said:i

A volume pedal (after all your drives/boosts/etc) might be the way to go.

I always like to set my amp a little louder than needed and then knock it back a bit with a volume pedal. It allows me to ride the pedal up or down a bit depending on band dynamics.

Never thought of this! Might be the ticket.

austint01

Beexter said:

If you're going down the compressor route, try one with a blend / mix control. I struggled with them until I did. 

Ye I liked the Rorhwell but it didn't have a blend. The empress did. What about a dirty compressor like the Accountant? Maybe that can replace the looking glass.

stratman3142

I use an active volume pedal. Plus I have two levels of switchable clean boost which are 3 dB and 6dB. These are all post my overdrive and distortion pedals. The amp is set clean.

The 6dB boost is to take all my rhythm sounds to lead level. The 3dB boost is to give an intermediate level of lift. If 3dB happens to give too much lift in rhythm level, I back it off with the volume pedal (which is usually full up) or by backing off the volume pot on my guitar. If I feel my lead isn't cutting through on a song I'll engage both the 3dB and 6dB boost, but invariable I then have to back off the volume pedal to avoid taking the roof off.

I also find that a compressor helps to even out the levels when I'm alternating between chords and single note picking patterns.

I'm not averse to riding the volume pot on my guitar. Sometimes I add clean boost when I've got an overdrive/distortion pedal engaged, then back of the volume pot on my guitar to get a crunch rhythm tone.

ecc83

I also thought of a volume pedal but you could also A/B between the Blackstar's two input channels. Different sound qualities I know but that might be a blessing in disguise?

Dave.

ICBM

You could fit a less efficient speaker to the amp, or use an attenuator to cut the level to the speaker, either of which would allow you to turn the amp up a bit further. If the amp is being pushed fairly hard it will then introduce natural compression as well.

austint01

ICBM said:

You could fit a less efficient speaker to the amp, or use an attenuator to cut the level to the speaker, either of which would allow you to turn the amp up a bit further. If the amp is being pushed fairly hard it will then introduce natural compression as well.

The only time I've experienced this was with with a cranked AC30 (miked off stage, on IEM s). To get to that compression on the a15 it needs to be about half way up. I've already tried this approach with a Jettenuator but I wasn't happy with how the amp responded anymore. Really flat and linear. I know I could get a reactive load but for that money I'd rather pursue another app option at that point. 

Do you think a g12m would really kill the volume a fair bit? 

austint01

ecc83 said:

I also thought of a volume pedal but you could also A/B between the Blackstar's two input channels. Different sound qualities I know but that might be a blessing in disguise?

Dave.

I don't have an A/B anymore I guess I'd have to try it.

Do people who run high headroom amps not have the same volume mismatch problems? 

stratman3142

austint01 said:

Do people who run high headroom amps not have the same volume mismatch problems? 

I run my amp clean with a high headroom and use pedals (in fact now a Helix LT) for the OD/distortion sounds. Even so, if find that, at low volume I need less volume boost to go from rhythm to lead than I do at higher volume. I'm not sure it's just about the amp. I think the human ear also applies compression as the volume goes up. That's why I like to have the option of adjusting things on the fly, as I explained earlier.

ICBM

austint01 said:

Do you think a g12m would really kill the volume a fair bit? 

Not really. You'll need to go down a lot lower than that to get much useful volume reduction. Some of the Jensens are quite inefficient, the P12R especially.

Or the (I hate to say this, but it is quite low ) Celestion Rocket 50. You can usually pick these up very cheap too!

austint01

stratman3142 said:

austint01 said:

Do people who run high headroom amps not have the same volume mismatch problems? 

I run my amp clean with a high headroom and use pedals (in fact now a Helix LT) for the OD/distortion sounds. Even so, if find that, at low volume I need less volume boost to go from rhythm to lead than I do at higher volume. I'm not sure it's just about the amp. I think the human ear also applies compression as the volume goes up. That's why I like to have the option of adjusting things on the fly, as I explained earlier.

I think you're right about the perception of volume. It never crossed my mind but having the volume pedal post gain pedals seems like it could ease the issue.

austint01

ICBM said:

austint01 said:

Do you think a g12m would really kill the volume a fair bit? 

Not really. You'll need to go down a lot lower than that to get much useful volume reduction. Some of the Jensens are quite inefficient, the P12R especially.

Or the (I hate to say this, but it is quite low ) Celestion Rocket 50. You can usually pick these up very cheap too!

I've never liked Jensen's with gain to be honest. They all seemed fizzy.

I've heard a Rocket 50 in a Laney tube fusion. It was terrible IMHO.

Thanks for all the responses. I'm probably going to try a combo of compression and volume pedal and see how I get on. Thanks all! 

Voxman

ICBM said:

austint01 said:

Do you think a g12m would really kill the volume a fair bit? 

Not really. You'll need to go down a lot lower than that to get much useful volume reduction. Some of the Jensens are quite inefficient, the P12R especially.

Or the (I hate to say this, but it is quite low ) Celestion Rocket 50. You can usually pick these up very cheap too!

I have a Celestion Rocket 50 if anyone wants one. Immaculate, barely broken in.