Life imprisonment for mobile phone death drivers.

fields5069

rlw said:

I'm ambivalent about the life sentence idea.  No-one sets out to have an accident and even when it's the result of the most stupid piece of driving, the end result is very far from what was planned.  It is impossible to predict what might happen in most cases when you lose control although the loss of control might be predictable if you are driving badly enough.

Unlike someone going out armed with a knife and stabbing someone else.  A knife is carried for a purpose and the action of stabbing someone with it is premeditated insofar as it was picked up in the first place, and the result of stabbing someone is reasonably predictable.

When knife murderers regularly get life sentences, then I might feel better about bad drivers getting the same.

Also, should the loss of life in a car accident be as significant as it is?  For example, I had a pretty bad accident last year when I understeered into the front wheel and bumper of a slow moving milk tanker on a very rural bit of road.  The tanker was a mess, my car was a write off and me and mrsrlw spent a few hours in the emergency department.  

However, no-one was badly injured or killed, there was nothing to suggest dangerous driving and everything was settled very quickly.  I got to attend a driving awareness course, which was interesting, and that was it.

Had that tanker been a 1975 Mini, I would imagine that all the occupants would be dead or injured and I would have been facing all manner of charges and, possibly, looking at a jail sentence.  And yet because no-one else was injured and it was a property only insurance claim, I wasn't charged but, surely, as the standard of driving would have been exactly the same, this is a bit daft.

Perhaps drivers should be charged more often in fact, or points picked up for silly offences like running into the back of another car.  Totally avoidable and no different, really, from running into a pedestrian, but one will get you nicked and the other, probably, won't.

Perhaps violent criminals should get real life sentences for their pre-considered actions while drivers still get the time off etc etc.

Rant sort of over.

I'm struggling to see how that wasn't dangerous driving tbh. Although I acknowledge that driving instruction really should be more thorough, and very few people on the road, myself included, are really that well equipped to handle dangerous situations. A miscalculation of speed, an unfamiliar road, and as you say an accident can cause a fatality. Isn't it similar, but not the same, to a charge of GBH versus manslaughter? The outcomes are different but the violence is the same (let's assume).

prowla

My iPhone pinged me a message last week to ask me if I was driving!

ToneControl

fields5069 said:

rlw said:

Perhaps violent criminals should get real life sentences for their pre-considered actions while drivers still get the time off etc etc.

Rant sort of over.

I'm struggling to see how that wasn't dangerous driving tbh. Although I acknowledge that driving instruction really should be more thorough, and very few people on the road, myself included, are really that well equipped to handle dangerous situations. A miscalculation of speed, an unfamiliar road, and as you say an accident can cause a fatality. Isn't it similar, but not the same, to a charge of GBH versus manslaughter? The outcomes are different but the violence is the same (let's assume).

no, if you do something reckless that can cause death (e.g. stealing a gas meter), you don't get done for GBH if no one is hurt, but it's manslaughter if someone is killed

similarly, if you drive recklessly, and hit an empty parked car, you can't be charged with GBH, but if you do hit someone and kill them, it's a different matter

Bucket

Emp_Fab said:

I'm amazed I haven't been ostracised for confessing to having checked email when driving - by someone on their smartphone at the wheel. :-)

Well I've been done for talking on the phone, but at least I was actually LOOKING AT THE FUCKING ROAD.

chillidoggy

rlw said:

I'm ambivalent about the life sentence idea.  No-one sets out to have an accident and even when it's the result of the most stupid piece of driving, the end result is very far from what was planned.  It is impossible to predict what might happen in most cases when you lose control although the loss of control might be predictable if you are driving badly enough.

Unlike someone going out armed with a knife and stabbing someone else.  A knife is carried for a purpose and the action of stabbing someone with it is premeditated insofar as it was picked up in the first place, and the result of stabbing someone is reasonably predictable.

When knife murderers regularly get life sentences, then I might feel better about bad drivers getting the same.

Also, should the loss of life in a car accident be as significant as it is?  For example, I had a pretty bad accident last year when I understeered into the front wheel and bumper of a slow moving milk tanker on a very rural bit of road.  The tanker was a mess, my car was a write off and me and mrsrlw spent a few hours in the emergency department.  

However, no-one was badly injured or killed, there was nothing to suggest dangerous driving and everything was settled very quickly.  I got to attend a driving awareness course, which was interesting, and that was it.

Had that tanker been a 1975 Mini, I would imagine that all the occupants would be dead or injured and I would have been facing all manner of charges and, possibly, looking at a jail sentence.  And yet because no-one else was injured and it was a property only insurance claim, I wasn't charged but, surely, as the standard of driving would have been exactly the same, this is a bit daft.

Perhaps drivers should be charged more often in fact, or points picked up for silly offences like running into the back of another car.  Totally avoidable and no different, really, from running into a pedestrian, but one will get you nicked and the other, probably, won't.

Perhaps violent criminals should get real life sentences for their pre-considered actions while drivers still get the time off etc etc.

Rant sort of over.

That wasn’t a rant. It was a thoughtful and insightful post.

underdog

My wife often uses my phone while I'm driving as its streams music to car radio, so if she is browsing YouTube and I crash I get life as my misses was on my phone?

I still think a lot more proof is going to needed for a conviction than phone activity before the accident, who says 3mins before the accident you weren't legally parked up using your phone, or your kid wasn't playing angry birds on it etc 

Sambostar

Sound insulation, comfy seats, sat navs, screens, radios, gadgets, speedos and odometers should also be banned if you ask me.  At least that way people will be halfway to understanding what my driving experience is like.

Anyway the truth is the prisons are full so this new 'Law' will prove to be full of shite, obviously apart from a few unfortunate media scapegoats of course who will rot.

fields5069

ToneControl said:

fields5069 said:

rlw said:

Perhaps violent criminals should get real life sentences for their pre-considered actions while drivers still get the time off etc etc.

Rant sort of over.

I'm struggling to see how that wasn't dangerous driving tbh. Although I acknowledge that driving instruction really should be more thorough, and very few people on the road, myself included, are really that well equipped to handle dangerous situations. A miscalculation of speed, an unfamiliar road, and as you say an accident can cause a fatality. Isn't it similar, but not the same, to a charge of GBH versus manslaughter? The outcomes are different but the violence is the same (let's assume).

no, if you do something reckless that can cause death (e.g. stealing a gas meter), you don't get done for GBH if no one is hurt, but it's manslaughter if someone is killed

similarly, if you drive recklessly, and hit an empty parked car, you can't be charged with GBH, but if you do hit someone and kill them, it's a different matter

There are still consequences though. So reckless driving causing an accident with no injuries is still punished, just as stealing the gas meter would still be punished. My analogy was wrong, admittedly. If outcomes are different, the punishment changes. That's all theory of course, and with limited resources to prosecute I'm sure people are getting away with recklessness every day.

PC_Dave

This is a really interesting topic. I, like many, have been guilty of checking my phone when at traffic lights or stuck in traffic checking Waze etc. The one thing that has opened my eyes to the widespread use of phones while driving is now being a motorcycle rider. I could easily say on average 4, maybe 5 out of 10 drivers I see on each journey are either holding their phone to their ear on a call, or texting whilst moving. 

I make a point of having a word with them whenever I can whilst stopped - it’s truly terrifying on the roads some days, and you can spot them a mile off, and some don’t even realise they are doing anything wrong.

I can say hand on heart now my phone goes in my bag in the boot when I’m driving the car. Zero temptation, and it’s quite nice to have a break from it to be honest! 

ThePrettyDamned

So is there anyone who feels it should not be illegal to use a mobile phone for driving? Just out of curiosity.

I am surprised there is any kind of controversy around it - I'm grateful to be able to spend half an hour disconnected from the cloud while driving, but I suppose some people really love calling, texting and googling.

I wonder if cameras or patrols will be able to issue fixed penalty notices if you're snapped while on the phone or similarly distracted? So even without an accident, a phone call could cost £150 or something. 

underdog

ThePrettyDamned said:

So is there anyone who feels it should not be illegal to use a mobile phone for driving? Just out of curiosity.

I am surprised there is any kind of controversy around it - I'm grateful to be able to spend half an hour disconnected from the cloud while driving, but I suppose some people really love calling, texting and googling.

I wonder if cameras or patrols will be able to issue fixed penalty notices if you're snapped while on the phone or similarly distracted? So even without an accident, a phone call could cost £150 or something. 

Like I said my phone streams music to my car speakers, it's also my sat nav, I will quite happily talk over Bluetooth while driving but never touch my phone.

PC_Dave

underdog said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

So is there anyone who feels it should not be illegal to use a mobile phone for driving? Just out of curiosity.

I am surprised there is any kind of controversy around it - I'm grateful to be able to spend half an hour disconnected from the cloud while driving, but I suppose some people really love calling, texting and googling.

I wonder if cameras or patrols will be able to issue fixed penalty notices if you're snapped while on the phone or similarly distracted? So even without an accident, a phone call could cost £150 or something. 

Like I said my phone streams music to my car speakers, it's also my sat nav, I will quite happily talk over Bluetooth while driving but never touch my phone.

The rozzers can still pull you if they have reason to believe the driver is distracted, even when completely hands free - it’s a funny one.

ToneControl

you know what distracted me massively (other than kids and bloody satnavs) over the last few years?
Stupid Volvo full beam: any other car you just push the lever away from you and it latches, but you have to do such  a stupid movement to get it working on a Volvo, that it really interrupted my concentration, on a dark road just as you pass oncoming cars

Main beam flash Move the stalk switch gently towards the steering wheel to the position for main beam flash. Main beam comes on until the stalk switch is released. Main beam Main beam can be activated when the knob is in position 17 or . Activate/deactivate main beam by moving the stalk switch towards the steering wheel to the end position and then releasing. When main beam has been activated the symbol illuminates in the combined instrument panel. 

so, instead of a tiny movement to flick the beam off again with one finger, you have to pull the stalk towards you an inch or more, whilst steering, and then let it go again

ToneControl

My iPhone keeps trying to refuse to work in the car

BigBearKris

- hey man...what are you in for?
- snapchat...

- fuck! That's harsh. 15-25 innit?
- nah mate - that's WhatsApp... Snapchat is 20-45...
#notinkenya

Wolfetone

ICBM said:

I've never understood why the laws concerning killing someone are different if you do it while driving a car.

Killing someone while not paying attention because you're using a phone while driving is basically causing death by criminal negligence… for which the maximum sentence is life imprisonment.

Yeah, a good point. I think that the offence is one committed by all groups of people and for most of us, the thought of jail is a nightmare.

It's a shame that merely the risk of causing someones death isn't a big enough deterrent but I suppose most of us either never think it'll happen to us or, we can't imagine the scenario to start with.

perhaps another aspect is that most of us are gamblers to greater or lesser degree and we just see the odds as being acceptable? 

Wolfetone

ThorpyFX said:

Whats annoying about the police attitude to checking with the network provider is its a blunt tool. 

I would say that many distractions would be from thumbing through your music that's connected to the car. The network provider wouldn't see that.

My guess is that many more accidents are caused by this than we think. The perpetrators will never admit it anyhow.

Myranda

Wolfetone said:

ThorpyFX said:

Whats annoying about the police attitude to checking with the network provider is its a blunt tool. 

I would say that many distractions would be from thumbing through your music that's connected to the car. The network provider wouldn't see that.

My guess is that many more accidents are caused by this than we think. The perpetrators will never admit it anyhow.

Knowing first hand how easy it is to perform a digital forensics examination of a phone I suspect that in the case of death involving a driver it will become standard to check the phone...

Lots of logs in message systems a day calling software...