Anyone Ever Dealt with Norm's Rare Guitars?

Moe_Zambeek

Lebarque said:

Plenty of great dealers in the UK to support and get guitars from...

Are there *any* reputable vintage dealers in the U.K.? 

peteri

richh said:

@peteri if you have family in America, could the guitar be shipped to then, and then forwarded to you?

Thanks - thought the same as I typed it!

adamm82

Lebarque said:

Plenty of great dealers in the UK to support and get guitars from...

Some of the prices can be a bit ridiculous though. They may also struggle going forward getting inventory in 

guitars4you

The whole CITES issue is a mess and a total pain - With both export docs required from the USA and import docs required for the EU - you can't get EU import version until you get USA export version - both cost - different countries are adopting different CITES rules at times - Not required though if you bring it back with you on the plane but via a courier it is a must have - As such many dealers are adopting a policy of leave it and just sell within your customs border - I had a chance last week to sell a Ricky 900 Combo guitar to the USA - hassle means I won't bother

Even worse if you look at the info required for Brazilian rosewood, be it you buying from the USA via a courier or a shop visit and plain home - restriction might also be in place for mother of pearl inlays and/or certain inlays and ivory + tortoise shell for say binding and inlays - It is a mess - I had an e-mail to and fro chat last week with the CITES UK office regarding such issues and probably easier to understand the Big Bang theory, to the point that if you bring a guitar into the UK, all goes well and you end up with an Article 10 licence to be able to sell it at a later date, you'll breathe a big sigh of relief

There are talks underway at Government level, CITES and the Music Trade association to see what can be done about the used market and how it is restrictive - take into account this has an impact on pianos, violins etc and other instruments - To a degree I can understand a policy of CITES on new woods, but the restriction on used is 100% pointless - It is a pain to buy, sell and gig with such guitars and it is not going to save the planet

Lebarque

Moe_Zambeek said:

Lebarque said:

Plenty of great dealers in the UK to support and get guitars from...

Are there *any* reputable vintage dealers in the U.K.? 

I've only heard positive things about David J Pym. Not dealt with him myself though.

Bridgehouse

Lebarque said:

Moe_Zambeek said:

Lebarque said:

Plenty of great dealers in the UK to support and get guitars from...

Are there *any* reputable vintage dealers in the U.K.? 

I've only heard positive things about David J Pym. Not dealt with him myself though.

I have. He is very reputable.

VimFuego

Neil said:

lewism said:

peteri said:

Thanks all - lesson learned, I think you're all right - it's likely that CITES has probably killed this, but reality is - despite their growing Youtube presence, essentially - they're old school and you need to call/call in.

Lesson learned

 But that's just stunningly daft on their part. Going through something similar myself, enquiried about a $5k vintage guitar from a similarly respected US vintage dealer 2 weeks ago. Initial request for info & more detailed photos got no response. I stated that I understood my CITES & customs liabilities etc. A follow up email got "I really want to sell this guitar but I'm waiting on a payment from someone else". It's still on their website & Reverb. Why leave it up if a sale is going through? I'll drop them another email but it sort of smacks of " I can't really be bothered, it'll sell eventually ". That's fine if that business model works for them but it's surely got a short shelf life if, as predicted, their market is in decline. If I end up genuinely thinking they can't be bothered, I just won't look at their website or listings again - there are plenty of dealers who still CAN be  bothered. Limiting their market surely isn't in their interests in the long term? Only really dealing via phone? Not too clever for an international market.

Thing is, they don't really need an international market.

Plenty of business for them in the huge market that is the USA where they don't need to bother with CITES, Customs etc  and can use the shippers they feel comfortable with. 

Why would they make things hard for themselves if they don't have to?

this basically, if you spend any time on a US based instrument forum, you quickly realise just how much money is sloshing around over there (whether it's real money or all on credit), some of the people I've seen make even our most ardent GASSISTS seem like rank amateurs. 

iain.reverb

lewism said:

@Neil , I get their logic to an extent but I think it's a little short sighted. The USA has large quantities of guitars that there's a large international market for but were only exported in relatively limited quantities at the time. If I were in their position I'd get good at making international sales run as smoothly as possible. As a purchaser I'd expect the additional costs To be factored into the purchase price anyway. The attitude of "nah, I've got a decent home market so I can't be arsed with export" has done for a lot of businesses. Obviously, my position is coloured by a bit of frustration though!

The US dealers who have a CITES process in place and figured out are making a killing at the moment in international sales

peteri

@iain.reverb Any names?

guitars4you

iain.reverb said:

lewism said:

@Neil , I get their logic to an extent but I think it's a little short sighted. The USA has large quantities of guitars that there's a large international market for but were only exported in relatively limited quantities at the time. If I were in their position I'd get good at making international sales run as smoothly as possible. As a purchaser I'd expect the additional costs To be factored into the purchase price anyway. The attitude of "nah, I've got a decent home market so I can't be arsed with export" has done for a lot of businesses. Obviously, my position is coloured by a bit of frustration though!

The US dealers who have a CITES process in place and figured out are making a killing at the moment in international sales

You will still have to wait 4-6 weeks to apply  for the USA export licence for that guitar and potentially another 4-6 weeks for the EU licence - so I'm not sure many customers want to wait this long - plus costs to go with it - Furthermore if it contains Brazilian rosewood, I believe it can only leave the USA through certain airports/customs points, as only a few have the appropriate check points in place

guitars4you

lewism said:

@Neil , I get their logic to an extent but I think it's a little short sighted. The USA has large quantities of guitars that there's a large international market for but were only exported in relatively limited quantities at the time. If I were in their position I'd get good at making international sales run as smoothly as possible. As a purchaser I'd expect the additional costs To be factored into the purchase price anyway. The attitude of "nah, I've got a decent home market so I can't be arsed with export" has done for a lot of businesses. Obviously, my position is coloured by a bit of frustration though!

You can't factor the CITES certificate in as an all inclusive price - If you sell 'locally' within your customs borders you don't actually need it - Therefore if you wish to build it into the price as a 'hidden extra' then whilst that is fine for an 'export' transaction, but if sold 'locally' then the home market customer is paying for something they do not need

Easy to say I'm biased as a dealer, but CITES on used guitars is a total pain and a ludicrous idea - How the hell does not selling a 10/20/30 year old guitar to a customer overseas save the planet - If anything it is helping as it means you are not buying a new guitar that has only recently required a tree to be felled

SquireJapan

Having spent a bit of time in the US I can agree (to a degree) that the earlier point about them not caring too much about business outside the US is true. 

USA is soooo big, they just don't have to bother. Equally, for a lot of people over in the states they really don't have much experience or desire to think internationally. That's not a slight on the USA, it's just that they don't need to. 

By default being in a small island in the world like we are, a lot of people are very comfortable buying things from overseas ... many people are incredibly comfortable taking holidays abroad with different currencies and cultures (even if that's a long weekend in Ibiza ...) 

USA less so ... I decided to look up the numbers:
- Total number of US citizens 325,365,189 (https://www.census.gov/popclock/)
- Total number of valid US passports 136,114,038 (https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/after/passport-statistics.html) 

It's effort for people, so why would they? A few times I've had to explain to US based eBay people how to ship something to me in the UK. It's just a bit alien.

As a great example, in the UK we're very used to USA telly, so we're comfortable understanding that garbage means rubbish ... sidewalk means footpath etc. Use those terms in the US and it throws a lot of people. They do get some British TV over in the states, but it's much more niche. Same for films well.

Anyway ... rant over!

darcym

Wild West Guitars in the States got me a mega PRS with rosewood, in under a week, they got the CITES stuff sorted and had it shipped to me within 6 days of the purchase and with zero cost on top of the list price, which they actually reduced for me, so clearly it can be done if the desire is there, for wild west the desire was there and they got a nice spend on a PRS.

richardhomer

Moe_Zambeek said:

Lebarque said:

Plenty of great dealers in the UK to support and get guitars from...

Are there *any* reputable vintage dealers in the U.K.? 

There might be - but I have no experience of any.

There are plenty of disreputable ones though....

guitars4you

darcym said:

Wild West Guitars in the States got me a mega PRS with rosewood, in under a week, they got the CITES stuff sorted and had it shipped to me within 6 days of the purchase and with zero cost on top of the list price, which they actually reduced for me, so clearly it can be done if the desire is there, for wild west the desire was there and they got a nice spend on a PRS.

remarkable time scale on CITES for you - did you get a EU import one as well 

I've heard of 4-8 week delays between the USA export and EU imported certificates granted

I've heard of parcels left in customs awaiting clearance of CITES certificate for days so you've done well

darcym

I didn't have to do anything - they did it all for me, so I assume that means USA export and EU import too 

gavin_axecaster

APHA are pretty quick - I received an import certificate in 7 days, but that sounds like you were extremely lucky or it was before the UK required an import certificate.
The original import certificate must travel with the shipment so has to physically be sent from the UK to the US. I can't see how it was processed and mailed to the US in under a week.

guitars4you

darcym said:

I didn't have to do anything - they did it all for me, so I assume that means USA export and EU import too 

It will show on the paperwork somewhere as 2  distinctively different numbers for each certificate.
did you buy it in 2017  or before. 2016 and co certificate required

GoldenEraGuitars

Never dealt with them and I stopped watching their videos a while back. If they weren’t shooting a video with Marks rings and jewellery rattling off a 50s tele then Joe B is usually nearby nabbing all the good stuff for himself. 

You guys should check out Gregor Hilden on YouTube. I think he’s based in Germany. Beautiful player and sells vintage and higher end gear too.