Tele bridge placement

m_c

I need a sanity check, so I'll start with a photo.



I was checking bridge measurements on the tele build, and have discovered things aren't lining up very well.
That photo shows the bridge lined up with the through holes. The pen line nearest the pickup cavity is the 25.5" scale length, and the one 1/4" behind it, is the one where various guides say the screw holes in the bridge should be. As it stands, the bridge position is about 5mm too far back.
To get the marks, I've measured the length of the neck (469mm from the body/fretboard side of the nut slot, to the end), then measured the remaining distances (25.5" or 647.7 - 469 = 178.7 and 25.75 or 654 - 469 = 485) from the edge of the neck pocket.

Now by testing the fit of the pickguard, to get a nice even placement around the horn, it leaves a about a 2-3mm gap at the end of the neck.



Using a suitable router bit, that would let me move the neck further into the body by about 3mm, which is still a couple mm short of the ideal position. I could go further and reshape the guard, but I'd be worried about getting too close to the pickup cavity.
I could sand about a mm of the end of the neck, but anymore and I'd be shortening the truss rod.

So are my measurements correct, and what are peoples thoughts on getting things to line up?

m_c

And having just checked some dimensioned drawings, I've just realised it's the neck that's going to have to be modified :-/

The body dimensions are correct, and 469mm is the correct length for the fretboard, but a genuine neck, the fretboard should overhang the end of the neck, which means I need to remove material from the neck, while working around the trussrod, and then machine a suitable groove for the truss rod in the body.
Now I know I need about 5mm overhang, but I need to try and find the correct measurement.

gavin_axecaster

Is that the flame neck you bought from me? Both body and neck should be standard Fender spec so should not need any major fettling.
Overhangs are only on Fender 22 fret necks, yours is 21 frets.
Your calculations are confusing me (had a few sherries)
Lining up the string through holes with that bridge (assuming it's a Gotoh?) should be all you need to do to position it.
StewMac's fret calculator states the position of the centre of the mount screw holes should be 

25.750" (± 0.030") from the fretboard edge of the nut.

 

m_c

That very neck, and yes, a Gotoh bridge.
Perhaps this photo will help clarify measurements-



That's with the bridge laid so the string holes line up, and the circle with the line being where the bridge mounting hole will be.
The front line is where the 25.5" is with the neck sat in, and the middle line being where the bridge mounting holes should be (25.75").

By my measurements and calculations, everything is 5mm out.
Looking at the neck, you could just about get a 22nd fret on it, and if it wasn't for the truss rod adjuster, I could of just cut 5mm of the end

ICBM

m_c said:

The body dimensions are correct, and 469mm is the correct length for the fretboard, but a genuine neck, the fretboard should overhang the end of the neck, which means I need to remove material from the neck, while working around the trussrod, and then machine a suitable groove for the truss rod in the body.
Now I know I need about 5mm overhang, but I need to try and find the correct measurement.

No, the fingerboard should not overhang the end of the neck on a 21-fret neck.

The end of the neck does look *very* slightly too long, compared to a Fender - the end should be exactly where the 22nd fret would be normally, like this:

http://c-nelson.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/1968_Fender_Tele_Neck2_3AUG68B_001.jpg

Where does the 16th fret line up when the neck is in the pocket? It should be exactly above the outer end of the neck pocket. That should tell you what needs to be adjusted and by how much.

If the neck does need to be shortened, you can probably do it by removing the truss rod nut and cutting the same amount off the back end of it - if not it's better to lengthen the pocket by the same amount, which will also help the guard fit.

If everything fits correctly except for the saddle positions, the best solution is longer intonation screws.

gavin_axecaster

I don't think anything needs adjusting. I just checked a couple of Hosco bodies and 2 Mighty Mite bodies, as well as one of my own vintage spec bodies, all with Fender vintage spec bridges in place (The only Fender Tele body I have here is an American Standard). All come out a little longer than the Stew Mac calculator, to pretty much 25.8 inches for the bridge mount screws.
I'd put a pickup in the bridge and mount it lining up to string through holes.

m_c

Just measured it, and the neck extends about 2mm past where a 22nd fret would be, which is roughly the same amount the 16th fret is away from the body edge.

Plus I've just had another play with the pickguard, and realised when I had it set back a couple mm, it didn't leave any room for the control plate. It's not perfect when butted up against the neck, but it's acceptable, however I really need to get the bridge on so I've got a solid straight edge for seeing just how it lines up.

So what I'm thinking now, is shorten the neck a couple mm, which would then put the bridge mounting screws just over the 25.8" (thanks for the measurements @gavin_axecaster ). Then just rely on screws for the intonation. I do think the screws will be long enough, even as far out as it is now, but I very much doubt the springs would be.


Anyway, thanks for the help guys. I shall put everything back in it's box, while I await delivery of the machine head reamer, and go back to contemplating what pickups to get for another few weeks..

gavin_axecaster

I would caution against shortening the heel. It isn't required. A Fender 21 fret neck is actually long enough to fit a 22nd fret. Francis Rossi had it done to his 57. The second picture is my 2008 Fender neck. As ICBM said above, longer intonation screws will sort out intonation if the bridge is a problem. I can send you a set of long screws and springs (both will need to be cut down).

ICBM

m_c said:

Just measured it, and the neck extends about 2mm past where a 22nd fret would be, which is roughly the same amount the 16th fret is away from the body edge.

So what I'm thinking now, is shorten the neck a couple mm, which would then put the bridge mounting screws just over the 25.8" (thanks for the measurements @gavin_axecaster ). Then just rely on screws for the intonation. I do think the screws will be long enough, even as far out as it is now, but I very much doubt the springs would be.

Just stretch the springs. Put two knife blades into the first and last turns and gently pull them apart.

It maybe better to lengthen the pocket rather than shorten the neck. It does appear from gavin’s pics that the length of Fender necks varies slightly - probably only about 1-2mm, but that would be enough. The one in the pic I posted above is definitely slightly shorter.

If you do want to do that you can get away with it being less than perfectly neat too, since the pickguard will cover it. 70s Fenders are like that from the factory! - they have over-routed corners to avoid the need to make them fit properly...

PhilKing

I think it's the bridge.  A tele 3 saddle bridge has the string holes at the very end of the bridge.  Your's looks to be like a Strat, where the strings come up in the middle of the saddle.

FatPete

PhilKing said:

I think it's the bridge.  A tele 3 saddle bridge has the string holes at the very end of the bridge.  Your's looks to be like a Strat, where the strings come up in the middle of the saddle.

The mounting hole to string-through hole distance on the Gotoh is the same as a vintage bridge, it just extends back further because of the modern saddles. I'd very strongly suggest taking the vendor's advice and just fitting the bridge and neck as they are, both look fine to me.

GSPBASSES

I would do any sanding or routing yet. Forget all the measurements the only thing that matters is the intonation. Bolt the neck on screw the bridge on fit the tuners string it up and check it out, that's the only way you'll find out if it's right or wrong. That particular bridge should work on any commercial body/neck, it can be a bit tight, but there's normally enough movement on each individual saddle to get the intonation correct. Also consider where the the saddles on the bridge may not be in the correct place to start with, looking at your picture with the type measure that low "E" saddle looks like it would only need to go slightly further forward to be in the correct place. As far as the pick guard goes, there's most likely more pick guards for sale that don't fit properly than ones that do fit correctly. 

ICBM

GSPBASSES said:

I would do any sanding or routing yet. Forget all the measurements the only thing that matters is the intonation. Bolt the neck on screw the bridge on fit the tuners string it up and check it out

I wouldn't do that because if you then need to set the neck further into the body - by either method - the screw holes will then be in the wrong place. If the 16th fret is beyond the end of the body then the neck *is* too far out really.

If you want to check it that way I would clamp the neck to the body - using soft wood cauls both sides so you don't damage anything - and just fit the top E string. If you can get that to intonate then all the other strings will be fine.

john_r

I think its fine, 25.75 looks to be where the edge of your bridge mount holes will be rather than the middle, but you should be able to compensate for that with the saddles easily. To be on the safe side I would do as ICBM suggests and clamp the neck in place and see if the top E will intonate.

GSPBASSES

Maybe I'm just very optimistic about these things.

m_c

It's the potential screw hole issue that is making me double check everything.

I know that longer saddle screws could solve most problems, but I am a bit of a perfectionist, so would rather put the effort in now, than have to live with knowing it's not quite right.

ICBM

GSPBASSES said:

Maybe I'm just very optimistic about these things.

One of my least favourite jobs is when someone brings me a kit guitar they've put together and it doesn't quite fit right .

m_c said:

It's the potential screw hole issue that is making me double check everything.

I know that longer saddle screws could solve most problems, but I am a bit of a perfectionist, so would rather put the effort in now, than have to live with knowing it's not quite right.

This. It's much easier to get it to fit accurately in the first place than to fix it afterwards.

m_c

I got around to getting the neck clamped on tonight, and the intonation is borderline.
With the saddle at the very end of the adjustment screw, it just intonates and no more (I'm only using a clip-on Snark, as I've not got enough bits handy to bodge a connection to my tuner pedal). With just a touch of pressure on the saddle screw spring, intonation was flat, and slackening it to the very end (about 2mm movement) resulted in being able to just push things sharp with lots of fretting pressure.

Now bear in mind the nut is still a bit high and will be adding to the sharpness when fretted at the 12th, I think some material is going to be removed. I'm currently thinking 2-3mm off should be enough to push things back into useful adjustment.

Roland

Would longer screws sort this out?

m_c

Roland said:

Would longer screws sort this out?

Most likely, but I'm a perfectionist, and I just know longer screws would be a constant reminder I took the easy option.

FatPete

Just to humour me, would you measure from the edge of the neck pocket nearest the bridge to the string-through holes?