Should I be looking for a Les Paul or a semi-hollow?

bacchanalian

dindude said:

bacchanalian said:

How about a used Collings i35lc? Versatile and addresses a few issues I have with a 335.  It is slightly less wide but feels a lot more manageable. Very nice neck if you are not into slim taper.  Choice of pickups is excellent. Small points, but I prefer where the jack socket and strap buttons are. Also, the Collings is very light even compared to a chambered LP.

This is the correct answer. So long as you have £5K to spend!

Yes, diminishing returns sets in very fast, but I did mention used.  There were a few on here that were around the same as a new 335.  

CloudNine

It's one of the mysteries of the universe, but an i35 is just not a patch on a nice 335. The best way to describe it is, if you think of two girls. The first is perfect looking, drop dead gorgeous, maybe the most beautiful girl you have ever seen. The second is still smoking hot, maybe not quite as perfect as girl one, but she has the best personality and is dynamite in the sack, much more so than the other.

Which one would you marry?

west

stickyfiddle said:

Don’t discount the 336. Far better than a 339...

Absolutely not the case for me .....

west

CloudNine said:

It's one of the mysteries of the universe, but an i35 is just not a patch on a nice 335

but an i35 is solid wood and a 335 is laminate so banana and avacado ...

guitarfishbay

What do you want the guitar for?  Is it a GAS thing or are there sounds you need you're not getting?

I've had both, sold the semi and still have a Les Paul though I don't use it much as I prefer my PRS and Fenders for the music I'm playing right now.  My Les Paul is probably the best sounding guitar I've had in standard tuning but I don't have much use for it in drop B which is what I currently tune to for my band.

CloudNine

west said:

CloudNine said:

It's one of the mysteries of the universe, but an i35 is just not a patch on a nice 335

but an i35 is solid wood and a 335 is laminate so banana and avacado ...

i35lc's are laminate like a 335. I owned a i35 deluxe, but have played quite a few i35lc's, and directly A/B'd with a 335. Only one winner for me. I reckon quite a few people buy Collings semi's, but still want a 335, and end up moving them on. I know I did.

vasselmeyer

If I recall, you're a big Gary Moore fan, and I've certainly heard some of that in your playing. Contrast the sound on his earlyish blues albums, particularly on "After Hours" where he used less gain than on "Still Got the Blues" with his playing on "Back to the Blues".  On "Back to the Blues" he used a 335 and you can really hear the difference to a Les Paul, especially on his version of "Stormy Monday" .  The difference is quite distinct.

Personally I've never really enjoyed playing semis. They just feel a little too lightweight and delicate to me, but them I'm very heavy handed and don't really  take that much care of my guitars when I'm playing them.

cj73

CloudNine said:

It's one of the mysteries of the universe, but an i35 is just not a patch on a nice 335. The best way to describe it is, if you think of two girls. The first is perfect looking, drop dead gorgeous, maybe the most beautiful girl you have ever seen. The second is still smoking hot, maybe not quite as perfect as girl one, but she has the best personality and is dynamite in the sack, much more so than the other.

Which one would you marry?

I'd follow standard tFB form and try them both then send one back within 14 days

bacchanalian

CloudNine said:

a few people buy Collings semi's, but still want a 335, and end up moving them on. I know I did.

I have to respectfully disagree. My Collings has the best neck I have tried. It is now my benchmark against which all other guitars are judged. I do agree with you that if you want a 335 do not buy a Collings. Although the i35lc is obviously 335 based it is a different instrument that should be considered in it's own right.

CloudNine

bacchanalian said:

CloudNine said:

a few people buy Collings semi's, but still want a 335, and end up moving them on. I know I did.

I have to respectfully disagree. My Collings has the best neck I have tried. It is now my benchmark against which all other guitars are judged. I do agree with you that if you want a 335 do not buy a Collings. Although the i35lc is obviously 335 based it is a different instrument that should be considered in it's own right.

@bacchanalian   Fair points mate. And they do indeed have a beautiful neck profile. They are fantastic guitars, absolutely no doubt about it, but like you say quite a different vibe to a 335.

Phil_aka_Pip

CloudNine said:

Your original point was that the Natural 335's sound better, because they use the better looking wood, and they cover the rubbish looking ones with paint, and those ones sound worse as not so pretty wood doesn't sound as good.

So, taking the laminate thing out of the equation. Do you think a beautifully flamed/grained CS336 (carve top) is likely to sound better than a plainer one? I suggest that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to think that it will.

Hmmm no I don't think I'm claiming that nice-looking flame per se will give you a better tone. I'd suggest that fine even grain would give you better tone than coarse uneven grain with knots in it. I haven't asked any luthiers yet for their take on it. I will however admit to equating fine even grain with "good-looking" and coarse uneven grain with knots to "any old crap wood that needs a paint job to hide it".

CloudNine

@Phil_aka_Pip   Again, have to disagree mate. I don't think that fine/even grain wood on the top of a CS336 would be likely to give you better tone than uneven grain with knots in. Each piece of wood has it's own tonal qualities, not necessarily related to it's appearance. Aside from all that, I think the particular attributes weight/density etc. of the centre block would have more impact on the tone of that particular style of guitar.

Phil_aka_Pip

@WezV mate, you're a luthier, can you give us your take on the above subject?

WezV

Stiffness is key for me, not in a better/worse way though 

straight quartersawn grain is usually stiffer than erratic knotty grain.  Stiffer bodies and necks respond differently to flexible ones.

that goes out the window with thin laminates on a 335, but number and thickness of laminates and whether any are cross grained can have an affect... I don’t do enough with semis to be sure but vaguely remember there being a big difference in the lamibated structure of proper semi’s and cheap copies 


i avoid the L word

Phil_aka_Pip

Thank you. How does stiffness affect the sound? More stiffness => less sustain? Or the other way round? Does more stiffness accentuate or reduce high frequencies? etc ...

CloudNine

Blimey.. Let's take the laminates back out the equation.

If you took a room full of CS336's, there will be no correlation between great tone and the prettiest grain. If there is, it will be purely coincidental.

Equally, if you had a room full of Les Paul Junior's, the ones with the best grain pattern in the wood, will not necessarily sound the best.

WezV

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Thank you. How does stiffness affect the sound? More stiffness => less sustain? Or the other way round? Does more stiffness accentuate or reduce high frequencies? etc ...

I believe stiffer wood with straight quartersawn grain vibrates more efficiently as a whole instrument.  This gives a more direct attack and yes, longer sustain.

you will notice I don’t slways build with perfectly straight quartersawn wood.  I also think this is less important in bodies than necks, but should still be considered when building

with bodies, necks and fretboards I thoroughly believe boring wood is better than pretty wood, but that means I actually find boring grain quite pretty.

if we where to look at the violin family there are strong srguments for figured wood sounding different to comparable  Unfigured wood. I don’t think this can be applied to solids or semis as any change in stiffness is reduced as soon as it’s stuck to another piece of wood

Phil_aka_Pip

So, quoting @WezV (selectively for brevity, but hopefully not biased-ly):

• straight quartersawn grain is usually stiffer than erratic knotty grain.
• stiffer wood with straight quartersawn grain vibrates more efficiently as a whole instrument.  This gives a more direct attack and yes, longer sustain

... I hope this allows me to conclude that for a non-laminated instrument, if the grain is not erratic or knotty (ie is regular and even) then you will get more attack and more sustain. Not quite the same thing as "tone", because the latter implies a particular mix of frequencies that some might prefer over a different mix, but in my opinion a subjectively "better" sound. I think that's what I was trying to get at originally, but not saying it very well. With, of course, the caveat that a lot of guitars are built from several bits of wood stuck together and so any differences in stiffness make less difference to the sound of the instrument.

OTOH you could also try replacing all the electrics and other hardware off a cheap Hondo LP copy with genuine Gibson parts, and then seeing if the guitar sounded as good as the Gibbo. I rather suspect that it might not, hence I feel justified in suggesting that you like the sound of better wood more than the sound of rubbish wood.

I am unqualified to say whether or not Gibson deliberately use rubbish wood on instruments they intend to paint, but it would not surprise me if they used woods with lower quality grain on the instruments where the grain will show. They can't use AAA grade on everything. @CloudNine says it won't make any difference, I still think it might as there does seem to be variability in the perceived sound quality of various Gibson guitars - even in a room full of 336s. This may be due to other factors, but I wouldn't rule out the wood.

WezV

It’s an opinion based on experience I am happy to share, I won’t state it as scientific fact.  I let it guide my build choices to a certain extent, but still choose to step away from it a bit

i have the chance to be a bit more scientific about it, I just cut two African mahogany les Paul bodies with quite different grain, their weight and dimensions are identical .  But my plan is two very different builds because that interests me far more than trying to prove anything to anyone but myself

CloudNine

Phil_aka_Pip said:

So, quoting @WezV (selectively for brevity, but hopefully not biased-ly):

• straight quartersawn grain is usually stiffer than erratic knotty grain.
• stiffer wood with straight quartersawn grain vibrates more efficiently as a whole instrument.  This gives a more direct attack and yes, longer sustain

... I hope this allows me to conclude that for a non-laminated instrument, if the grain is not erratic or knotty (ie is regular and even) then you will get more attack and more sustain. Not quite the same thing as "tone", because the latter implies a particular mix of frequencies that some might prefer over a different mix, but in my opinion a subjectively "better" sound. 

Completely disagree that more attack and sustain is necessarily better tone. As you have said, you need everything to come together and produce the right tone, with the right balance of things, that is what makes a great sounding guitar. As discussed in this very thread about Collings guitars, they always have exceptional wood with lovely grain etc. and actually they do often have quite a direct sound, often a bit spiky for many people. Yes, they have tons of sustain, but what of it, to many many people they don't sound as good as the Gibson equivalents, and I can assure you that Gibson are not paying as much attention to the wood aesthetics as Collings are.

Also, with a solid body, I would suggest that weight and density are a much bigger influence on the tone, than stiffness. Necks, obviously different.

As per my earlier post, you are unlikely to find the best sounding guitar in a line up by looking for 'even grain' etc., whether it be a hollow body, solid, whatever.  From my experience, there will be no correlation whatsoever.